Forum Topic

Ifti...percentages and numbers

It turns out that old Ifti is a bit of a mathematician... great at quoting numbers when it comes to berating our schools etc. Well I got some numbers for you matey!Currently the prison population is around 27% muslim.  Muslims currently make up just under 5% of the population.... I wonder if old Ifti has any thoughts on this??? http://muslimstatistics.wordpress.com/2014/03/29/uk-muslim-prison-population-doubles-in-a-decade-to-27-muslim-mp-blames-it-on-islamophobia/

Andy Wright ● 4432d44 Comments

On another thread someone who was critical of the spread of shops selling Halal food was denounced as 'Islamophobic' and 'racist'. Now we have someone else happily quoting statistics from a highly dubious blog and it seems no-one responds. There have always religious groups seen as 'threats'. Until relatively recently it's been Roman Catholics; odd rituals, services in a foreign language, owing allegiance to a foreign ruler, highly socially conservative. Sound familiar? The sooner we stop demonising Muslims and start working with them the better.

Frank Dacey ● 4432d

Frank I am not demonising Muslims... I have taken a stance against one muslim in particularAnd all those who happen to agree with his rhetoric and his ideals.What I have written is not racist.... The number of muslims in England's jails is totally disproportionate to the population..... FACT !

Andy Wright ● 4432d

Why would you expect the population of England's jails to be representative of the population as a whole?

Norman Redfern ● 4432d

More to the point why wouldn't I?!?Shifty is claiming that English schools and just about everything else is a complete failure when in reality the muslims in jail have been caught, been to trial and convicted of a serious enough crime to be jailed.In a nutshell if the English are so bad, uneducated, violent etc then why is the prison population so disproportionate? Why isn't the prison population 90% white/christian/ catholic

Andy Wright ● 4432d

You may not want to demonise Muslims but, by using the Muslim statistics blog as your evidence, you are. A cursory glance will show that it is rabidly anti-Islamic, with a series of eye-catching headlines not actually backed up by the facts. For instance, it headlines one story, 'EU flooded by 1,000 Muslim asylum seekers every day'. The reality is that the story refers to all asylum seekers, not just Muslims, and goes on to point out that in Britain, for example, 60% of all asylum applications fall at the first hurdle. It would be interesting to know what the statistics were for Irish prisoners during the IRA bombing campaigns

Frank Dacey ● 4431d

Frank, while I cannot substantiate the 27% figure quoted, Muslim prisoners do represent a disproportionate percentage of the prison population even among ethnic minortiesFrom the MofJ statistics*** published in 2012 (the last data available) the 'mix of prisoners is (first figure is total number, second is %age of the prison population, the third is %age of the population as a whole):Christian 43,176 50.2% 61.3%Muslim 11,248 13.1% 4.0%Hindu 456 0.5% 1.5% Sikh 777 0.9% 0.7%Buddhist 1,756 2.0% 0.5%Jewish 252 0.3% 0.5%Other religious group 1,077 1.3% 0.5%No religion 25,2692 9.4% 24.1%Not recorded 2,037 2.4% 7.0%Total 86,067 100% 100%*** Source: House of Common Library, document reference SN/SG/4334Sadly, statistical data for the ethnicity of the prison population during 'the troubles' does not appear to be available although I would expect that Irish prisoners would simply, as now, be grouped into 'Christian' are now.

Nigel Brooks ● 4431d

I wonder what % of the overall prison population is foreign as opposed to the % they are of the population as a whole.

Keith Iddon ● 4431d

It's 13.75 %. Perhaps we should deport them all and pay their respective governments to incarcerate them in prisons at home and add 10% for good measure. I'm sure it would be cheaper for us and also solve our prison overcrowding problem.

Keith Iddon ● 4431d

Deportation should be the norm.Once we are out of the Common Market perhaps it will be easier to do this.

Dee Cook ● 4431d

I am suggesting deporting them before they begin their prison term,to serve it in their homeland, funded by UK govn.

Keith Iddon ● 4431d

Deportation should be the norm.It is, or rather, should be for all foreign national prisoners receiving a custodial sentence of 12 months or more.the problem is that this, an previous governments have 'kowtowed' to the Human Rights Act or have simply failed to remove these criminals from Britain.

Nigel Brooks ● 4431d

Far fewer than half the foreign prisoners currently in jail will be considered for deportation. To get a year in chokey over here you have to have done a fairly serious crime. People more often than not get a suspended sentence, fines or community service, far better imo to deport all who are found guilty of breaking our laws.

Keith Iddon ● 4431d

The point surely though Keith is that we fail to deport those who, even under current legislation, should be deported let alone the other offenders.

Nigel Brooks ● 4431d

There have been a couple of 'Harumph harumphs' on W4 about some of the comments on this forum lately, so stand in a corner please, turn round and hands on head until you are good little boys and girls...

Keith Iddon ● 4431d

This thread to be avoiding two issues:1. Very many Muslims in the UK are full citizens and it's pointless to talk about deportation or repatriation.2. It is wholly simplistic to suggest that there is a perfect correlation between those appearing at court/in prison and the population as a whole. There is also the problem of disproportionality: a particular ethnicity either having to live/work in a higher criminal area and/or differences in reporting, arresting and processing through the justice system. The professional regulators have had to deall

Sara Nathan ● 4431d

Sorry -iPhone hates long posts...regulators have had to deal with similar figures and tend to discover the picture is much more complex than it appears on the surface.

Sara Nathan ● 4431d

Maybe we need a quango set up to investigate this issue.

Keith Iddon ● 4430d

I wouldn't have thought so - just an understanding that some of the answers might be more complex than the questions.

Sara Nathan ● 4430d

I suggested deporting foreigners who broke the laws Sara. Not 'full citizens'. I think you added then Muslim bit ...

Keith Iddon ● 4430d

According to the Government statistics cited earlier, "Poland, Jamaica and the Irish Republic are the countries with the most nationals in prison establishments."Possible some of those foreigners do have the right to live here.Is it also possible that the Muslim population of prisons includes those who convert to Islam during their incarceration?

Norman Redfern ● 4430d

Surely if you are a foreign national and you get a prison sentence in this country it would be reasonable that you lose all right to further abode, citizenship etc? I don't see how that is unreasonable.

Keith Iddon ● 4430d

But is it legal to remove the right to live here from someone who legally has that right? I don't mean, does it breach their human rights. I mean, is it legal?

Norman Redfern ● 4430d

I don't know if it's legal or not but I think it is reasonable to expect right of abode to be conditional on adherence to the law.

Keith Iddon ● 4430d

Can I just add that to be Irish is a race, and as the statistics shown are all pertaining to religion, to be muslim is a religion and not a race, the same as hindu's and catholic's are not race so therefore you cannot be racist if you talk about someone's religion

Diana Oneill ● 4429d

They are the product of the British education system which makes a man stupid, selfish and corrupt. None of them were educated in a Muslim school with Muslim teachers. They find themselves cut off from their cultural, spiritual and linguistic identities. They suffer from Identity Crises.Muslim children not only need halal meat or Eid Holidays but they need state funded Muslim schools with Muslim teachers as role models during their development period also. There is no place for a non-Muslim child or a teacher in a Muslim school. Legally, the state has an obligation to respect the rights of parents to ensure that 'education and teaching(of their children) is in conformity with their own religious and philosophical convictions.' The schools must satisfy the spiritual, moral, social, and cultural needs of Muslim pupils. State schools with non-Muslim monolingual teachers are not in a position to satisfy their needs. A good school is not just a knowledge factory or a conveyor belt for churning out exam passes - it is a community, a family. A community is held together by common values and principles.IA

Iftikhar Ahmad ● 4429d

Native Brits must learn to respect and tolerate those who are different. The needs and demands of the Muslim community are different from those of natives. Muslims are in Britain not to give up their cultural heritage. They must integrate in their new home country, learn new languages and apply for political representation -- without forgetting their cultural heritage. It is important to learn Standard English, but their  languages should not be neglected. They need Masajid and grave yards. Muslim children not only need halal meat or Eid Holidays but they need state funded Muslim schools with Muslim teachers as role models during their development period also. There is no place for a non-Muslim child or a teacher in a Muslim school. A Muslim is a citizen of this tiny global village. He/she does not want to become notoriously monolingual Brit. The whole world belongs to Muslims. He/she must learn and be well versed in Standard English to follow the National Curriculum and go for higher studies and research to serve humanity. At the same time, he/she must learn and be well versed in Arabic, Urdu and other community languages to keep in touch with their cultural heritage and enjoy the beauty of their literature and poetry. For a Muslim English is an economic language and Arabic is a religious while Urdu and other community languages are their social and emotional languages.

Iftikhar Ahmad ● 4429d

I never realised how racist and anti-Islamic this country is until I moved here. These people are here legally and have the right to live how they want to. Just because there are terrorists who use Islam as a doctrine to justify their hateful acts, does NOT mean that every Islam wants to change Britain to Sharia Law, kill the gays and put all women in burkas! These people are being judged and punished for the actions of others that have nothing to do with them, simply because they are of the same religion. Do you judge Germans in the same way because their country committed genocide? Or the Irish if they are from an area where religious conflict was particularly violent? No. Seems like thinly veiled racism to me, not the 'staunch upholding of British rights against religious extremists' as you all seem to espouse. What do people mean when they talk about 'multiculturalism'? If a lot of people come from a foreign country and settle in a particular area they will bring the culture of that country with them. Of course they will want their schools to promote their values. Gender segregation is everywhere in the Muslim world including in EU applicant, Turkey, so either we believe in Britain as multicultural or we don't. You don't get to pick and choose the bits you want. Why not sit down with parents and listen to their concerns, instead of ordering an investigation? Shocked at this terrifying witch hunt against Muslims who are simply trying to raise standards. Its totally unacceptable to create a furore in the country over anonymous accusations with no proof. Because it is a divisive move and will affect community relations. This is the very reason why society does not function properly, this is a deliberate attempt to spread fear amongst communities, as the best way to control a nation is through fear itself. because this is NOT ,,I repeat is NOT an Islamic plot to take over Birmingham, so DO NOT put false information in the media to put Muslims down!!!!! What next.....Muslims taking over hospitals, banks, pubs....come on... Tomorrow, a Pakistani MP would become the PM of GB and this does not mean that the country has become a colony of Pakistan. 

Iftikhar Ahmad ● 4429d

These peoples are mis fit in Muslim countries. They should stay here because they have been educated by natives teachers in state schools.

Iftikhar Ahmad ● 4429d

Native Brits have been reverting to Islam not only in prison but also out side the prison. Those Brits who are reverting to Islam are highly educated and from middle and upper class. Uneducated Brits who are involved in anti-social behaviour, pregnancies and abortion and other evils of the British society are not interested in Islam. They do not have time to study Islam.

Iftikhar Ahmad ● 4429d

Harry Hannington ● 4429d

I have to ask; would any Muslim country state-fund Christian or Hebrew schools? Would any Muslim country tolerate open worship by non-Muslim religions? Would any Muslim country tolerate public demonstrations against its government by non-Muslim groups? This country may not satisfy all requirements of all immigrants, but all immigrants find a safe haven when they come here - why else would they come?

Harry Hannington ● 4429d

I am astonished at how intolerant you are of the inhabitants and this country that has offered you the hand of friendship, to say that "there is no place for a non muslim child or teacher in a muslim school just shows how racist and intloerant you are in your "great teachings" you should be ashamed of yourself

Ian Silversides ● 4429d

Hey shiftyBet your fingers are worn down to the bone with all that copy and pasting eh?Right... where in Pakistan or any other strict muslim state could I lobby the government for a state funded school that only took English kids?Oh.... If you copy and paste 79000 words I and everyone else just won't read them.... so here's your big chance !!

Andy Wright ● 4429d

Shifty iftiRule Britannia, Britain will never be slaves.  That is to your doctrine.

Nikki Howard ● 4429d

Muslim community is a part and parcel of the British society. It is a fact of life. The demand for state funded Muslim schools is in accordance with the law of the land. We are not asking for any favour. The problem with you lot is that you never accepted us as a part.Muslim community is paying all sorts of direct and indirect taxes. They are councillors, Lord Mayors, MPs and members of the House of Lords. In a very short time a Pakistani would be the PM of Britain. This does not mean that Britain would become a colony of Pakistan.Native Brits must learn to respect and tolerate those who are different. The needs and demands of the Muslim community are different from those of natives. Muslims are in Britain not to give up their cultural heritage. They must integrate in their new home country, learn new languages and apply for political representation -- without forgetting their cultural heritage. It is important to learn Standard English, but their  languages should not be neglected. They need Masajid and grave yards. Muslim children not only need halal meat or Eid Holidays but they need state funded Muslim schools with Muslim teachers as role models during their development period also. There is no place for a non-Muslim child or a teacher in a Muslim school. A Muslim is a citizen of this tiny global village. He/she does not want to become notoriously monolingual Brit. The whole world belongs to Muslims. He/she must learn and be well versed in Standard English to follow the National Curriculum and go for higher studies and research to serve humanity. At the same time, he/she must learn and be well versed in Arabic, Urdu and other community languages to keep in touch with their cultural heritage and enjoy the beauty of their literature and poetry. For a Muslim English is an economic language and Arabic is a religious while Urdu and other community languages are their social and emotional languages.

Iftikhar Ahmad ● 4429d

They came here because their skills are badly needs by the British economy. Without them the British society would bleed to death. In my opinion, there will never be an end to immigration.We live in a shrunken world and millions of people are on the move; one of our biggest challenges is how we learn to live in proximity to difference – different skin colours, different beliefs and different way of life. According to a study by COMPASS, Muslims born and educated were given the impression of outsiders. The perception among Muslims is that they are unwelcome in Britain is undermining efforts to help them integrate into wider society. Most of them say that they have experienced race discrimination and religious prejudice. Muslims and Islam is promoted a fundamentalist and separatist by the western elite, which have negative impact on community and social cohesion. The number of racist incidents occurring in London Borough of Redbridge’s schools have reached their highest levels since record begin.

Iftikhar Ahmad ● 4429d

This is purely an educational issue. Muslim children need to develop their own cultural, linguistic and spiritual Identities before they are exposed to wider society.Muslim community was and still a victim of Paki-bashing in every walk of life. Muslim community of Birmingham and Bradford is victim of Trojan Horse.

Iftikhar Ahmad ● 4429d

Who is going to make them slaves? Muslims are British citizens and part and parcel of British society

Iftikhar Ahmad ● 4429d

you are so dogmatic about your Muslim needs in this barbaric country --- you are part of the problem

Ian Silversides ● 4429d

Boys and girls, this is now becoming offensive and I suggest everyone stops the religious mudslinging on both sides.  Personally, I think religious schools are a complete anachronism in this day and age.  No child should be indoctrinated into ANY religion, whether it be Church of England, Catholic or any other at school.  All schools should be secular.

Anne Brown ● 4429d

offensive on whose part Miss ?

Ian Silversides ● 4429d

Hey shiftyit's NEVER the fault of the muslim community is it??  When your kids turn out bad it's down to the education they receive and nothing to do with their parenting !!

Andy Wright ● 4429d

Shifty.Muslim community was and still a victim of Paki-bashing in every walk of life.  Your words Shifty Pasha.Are you trying for the position of Grand Mufti.  If so, change your name to Muhammad Ahmad, the self-proclaimed Mahdi.  He was a trouble maker, just like you, Shifty.

Nikki Howard ● 4429d

I lived & worked in a 'moderate' Muslim emirate for 5 years - strangely, they needed my skill & education, but they probably wouldn't have bled to death if I hadn't gone! During my time there, I, like my colleagues, respected the law, the customs & the religious practices of our hosts. We had a 'Church', it was a room in the house of an ordained minister. It was tolerated as long as it wasn't seen to be a place where infidels worshipped. In answer to my question you gave your opinion on why Muslims come to Britain but you neglected to answer the more relevant question relating to whether Muslim countries would state-fund the building of schools for non-Muslim children - would they? I don't think so.

Harry Hannington ● 4428d