Forum Topic

HIGH RISE FLATS

With the mistakes made regarding the Grenfell Building in safety and fire precautions,i hope that the same mistakes are not going to be made in all the new high rise flats being planned for Acton and Ealing?

Dr John Stolworthy D.Sc ● 2950d43 Comments

Hi Peter, My comments were not aimed at the Action Group,but at the inaction of the reinvent persons and Authorities involved leading up to this tragic event.regards John.

Dr John Stolworthy D.Sc ● 2892d

Sadly not entirely true. The Grenfell Action Group thought about fire safety and a host of other problems in their building all the time, and campaigned for years to get things improved and remedied, but nobody in authority would take the necessary action. The real scandal is that the authorities actually 'thought' about fire safety a lot as well, but intentionally went for the worst possible options.

Peter Evans ● 2892d

Philippa,How right you are,yet again,fire and safety are the last things people think about,Sadly no one thought about fire or safety at Grenfell Tower and 72 people paid the price? regards John.

Dr John Stolworthy D.Sc ● 2892d

https://www.which.co.uk/news/2018/04/which-and-watchdog-find-failings-in-whirlpools-fire-risk-tumble-dryer-fix/Which have been calling for the plastic backs of appliances to be changed.https://www.which.co.uk/news/2018/02/revealed-the-brands-linked-to-the-most-appliance-fires/I have seen fridges being replaced into fitted kitchens where the ventilated fascia panels have been changed to non-ventilated.  There is too much time and attention spent on the look and not enough on the safety and following the manufacturer's installation instructions.

Philippa Bond ● 2893d

Philippa,Thank you for your input,i am looking forward tto the findings of the Grenfell inquiry and its outcome,regards John.

Dr John Stolworthy D.Sc ● 2895d

Exactly.

Philippa Bond ● 2895d

Philippa,i feel sure the message has got home,that combustible products must not be used,changes will certainly be in the pipeline,but like Brexit it take time,Rome was not Built in a day,i note more High rise going up in the Park Royal/Acton Area,and no additionalfire appliances coming to Acton or Park Royal Fire Stationswe are flying close to the wind with more residential risksto cover.Regards John.

Dr John Stolworthy D.Sc ● 2895d

If there is an aircrash all similar aircraft would be immediately grounded.Combustible materials are still being specified.Changes in Building Regulations are often only required to be instituted in new builds and not in refurbishments. 

Philippa Bond ● 2898d

Philippa,As i pointed out a lot of information etc has to be co-lated before an enquiry,Grenfell enquiry starts Monday the 21 of May 2018,an aircraft incident investigation is also a protracted event,at least they have a Black Box to help them,which is in fact RED,much has been done safety wise since Grenfell and much more will be done if the Grenfell enquiry makes for a safer high rise environment all the better,fire and safety precautions are a very serious matter and it is painfully apparent that some people did not seem to think so,thanks for your input,regards John.

Dr John Stolworthy D.Sc ● 2900d

If it was an air crash there would be measures put in place faster before the end of an enquiry.  We wouldn't be waiting for safety measures to be put in place while the buck is kicked down the line.

Philippa Bond ● 2900d

Philippa,The investigation of fire is normally straight forward,this investigation is starting after the long process of gathering evidence,inquests,etc and the lot of statements,and formal paperwork which an enquiry of this type needs too provide a through and in depth look into thecause etc of this terrible incident.regards John.

Dr John Stolworthy D.Sc ● 2901d

Too slow.  If it had been an aircrash it would have been investigated differently.

Philippa Bond ● 2901d

Philippa,The relevant authorities can not afford to have another incident like Grenfell in my years of experience asa senior fire safety officer i never found a Building with so many fire safety defects as Grenfell,someone will maybe looking at a charge of corporate manslaughter for the negligence involved.regards John.

Dr John Stolworthy D.Sc ● 2901d

The worry is that without fast strengthening and change of regulations there will be more flats with problems like Grenfell.  The problem is being kicked down the line.

Philippa Bond ● 2901d

Philippa,Leaseholders are responsible for the general upkeep of the property,and therefor they may well have too pay towards replacement of the cladding,many change the entrance door to their property to one that meets no fire regulations at all,these flats should not have been sold at all? REGARDS John.

Dr John Stolworthy D.Sc ● 2903d

I hope so, because there are people who've bought flats in buildings which the landlords are now telling them they will have to fund the change of the cladding/insulation themselves.

Philippa Bond ● 2903d

Hi Philippa,in the wake of the PM stating that HMG will fund the removal and replacement of the existing cladding in all Council and Housing Association properties, i think a sudden rethink will be made into all matters regarding the fire safety of high rise Buildings,and the fire safetyand Building Regulations in general.nice to see you are on the ball as normal,regards John.

Dr John Stolworthy D.Sc ● 2903d

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2018/apr/18/architects-fear-grenfell-review-will-avoid-flammable-cladding-ban

Philippa Bond ● 2903d

Hi Janice,Yes it will come down,when all investigations and inquiries have finised,regards John.

Dr John Stolworthy D.Sc ● 2930d

There was talk of a memorial in its place.

Janice Evans ● 2930d

Will Grenfell be demolished.

Janice Evans ● 2930d

Hi Philippa,With the vast ammount of high rise buildings now a hard look must be made into the fire precautions thereof and how we tackle any fire therein,whist fire fighting is normally done from within the lack of fire resistance at Grenfell tower did not successfully allow this and a total rethink is needed as to the size,safety and fire precautions of these buildings etc as a mastter of urgency.regards.John.

Dr John Stolworthy D.Sc ● 2930d

I think everybody should be aware.  Looking at the Evening Standard yesterday there was a visual of London with much more high rise building than there is already.

Philippa Bond ● 2931d

Hi Philippa,I am aware of these Documents,and i think more imput will be made before any changes are made to regulations andDocument re fire safety.regards John.

Dr John Stolworthy D.Sc ● 2931d

https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=24&v=kL3yuQFn6N0

Philippa Bond ● 2931d

RIBA concerns:https://www.architecture.com/knowledge-and-resources/knowledge-landing-page/recommendations-for-hackitt-review-after-grenfell-tower

Philippa Bond ● 2931d

Hi Philippa,Most Countries treat office abd flats as a separate problem fire wise,fire knows no borders,its the same everyhare,flats in general should be a fire resistant box,fire should therefore be contained to the flat involved,if however this is not the case it will spead faster than a person can run in the right circumstances,having a full time person on site,security or concierge is a bonus,regards John.

Dr John Stolworthy D.Sc ● 2931d

I wonder how many times the building had been refurbished.  This wasn't the only time I'm sure.  I find it very surprising the difference between towers of offices and those including sleeping accommodation.  I wonder what they do in other countries.  I know some have concierges.

Philippa Bond ● 2931d

Hi Philippa,Thank you for the information,i still await the official version,in all my experience in fire matters i have never come against such violation of fire safety and building regulations,the people in this fire did not stand a chance.regards John.

Dr John Stolworthy D.Sc ● 2931d

https://www.dezeen.com/2018/04/17/grenfell-tower-fire-report-london-uk-news/

Philippa Bond ● 2932d

Hi Philippa,Lakanal House was a fast furious fire,which was followed up,investigated and some changes made by local authorities,i am afraid your follow up is different to mine,electrical appliances in industry are subject to the PAT test,in private domestic situations is left to the owner,again fire resistance or lack of it contributed to the spead of fire and fatalities thereof,however full marks for your outstanding recall of the events,regards John.

Dr John Stolworthy D.Sc ● 2946d

I've remembered the one that wasn't followed up on and that was in Camberwell and called Lakanal House.Andy Slaughter MP for Hammersmith has been active in Parliament regarding fires in electrical appliances because there have been a lot of problems which need further action and there was a fire in a tower block in Hammersmith. Which? magazine have been calling for changes. We use more electrical appliances and gadgets nowadays than we did. You can look up the questions asked in Parliament:https://www.theyworkforyou.com/

Philippa Bond ● 2946d

Philippa,all the fires that i know of that changed Legislation,were thoroughly investigated and any changes required were made,thank you however for taking the trouble to keep me informed of your input re fire and safety,i have written many papers on this subject,Disability and fire etc,fire precautions in general etc,regards,John.

Dr John Stolworthy D.Sc ● 2947d

https://www.architectsjournal.co.uk/news/architects-assemble-real-time-model-of-grenfell-tower-fire/10029440.article

Philippa Bond ● 2947d

If you don't follow up on the fires properly though those changes don't happen.And weren't there some fires mentioned where the called for changes weren't made?

Philippa Bond ● 2947d

Philippa,Fire Legislation has always changed after the event,after a fire at Eastwood mills in 1956 8 Dead,the section of the Factory Act were brought in on fire safety,The Offices and Shops and Railway Act was brought in i963 after the Henderson's fire in Liverpool 11 dead,the list is long,if you would like me to send you some of my lecture notes see a e mail address to john.stolworthy@btinternet.com.regards John.

Dr John Stolworthy D.Sc ● 2947d

Agreed but if you look at regulations you will find that any changes that are made tend to follow some disaster or other.

Philippa Bond ● 2947d

Philippa,i hope the review is successful but regret to state in my view people are only interested in fire when they are involved in one,and then it is a only for a short while,i have heard the words many times,i did not think that would happen?the best way to fight fire is to prevent it in the first place?regards John.

Dr John Stolworthy D.Sc ● 2948d

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/independent-review-of-building-regulations-and-fire-safety-interim-report

Philippa Bond ● 2949d

Philippa,When applied our regulations are fine,the main job of overseeing this was taken from fire authorities,and yes they need change and a good overhaul,no blocks should be over ten floors in height,brigade ladders and hydraulic platforms reach 30 mtrs,100 feet,but if the means of escape is correct,people should be able to make their way to safety without the recourse of ladders,ropes,etc,one single staircase does not meet this requirement?cuts in the fire service are taking their toll,and more lives will be lost before someone wakes up and realises we have cut too far?regards John.

Dr John Stolworthy D.Sc ● 2949d

There is too much messing about with regulations.  The English Building Regs should have been reviewed years ago - there was a call for that years ago and someone in Government is still sitting on them. Scottish ones are clearer. We don't have enough people with technical and scientific knowledge working on these things.It worries me too that they will be built to old standards which do not take Grenfell and changes that should have taken place as new materials come on the scene and there are fewer of those fire engines which could deal with tall buildings into account.  It's different in Germany.

Philippa Bond ● 2949d

Phillipa,Happy Easter,there are guidelines on access etcas a former senior fire officer i was disgusted by the state of fire precautions at Grenfell Tower,and the Councils lack of who was resident there?there are too many unqualified people involved in fire safety work and tis need to be addressed? Regards John.

Dr John Stolworthy D.Sc ● 2949d

It is worrying that there will only be parking for blue badge users. I know that the idea is to promote the use of cycling and discourage car driving but I hope that high rises will have better and more means of escape than Grenfell Tower.  Will this change the mix of owners and tenants?

Philippa Bond ● 2950d