Forum Topic

Free Schools Approved

Surprise surprise The West London Free School is one of the 16 approved free schools.Wonder how they managed that?? NOT!

Jim Wong ● 5856d49 Comments

I would have put money on it. What a sham.

Chris Hurley ● 5856d

why is it a sham?They have been campaigning for ages, have done a lot of work and were just waiting for the election.Surely you would expectthem to be in the first 16 - and if not Toby's mob with its publicity-generating potential, famous front person and good connections, then who would you expect to get approved?Am neither particularly for nor bitterly against - just unsurprised

Sara Nathan ● 5856d

Perhaps Chris meant 'Shame' which I would echo, as I do not agree with the whole concept. I regret that the Labour Govt started the system of Academies, taking millions from sometimes dodgy sponsors and removing the link to the LA. Now you do not need the extra cash and the free school is another strand in the LA bad, independent, but still state funded good. New faith schools are another strand which again I an uncomfortable with.The steering group now has an ex head of the Oratory on board. I do not know if this is the head a friend complained of for his authoritarian approach to both pupils and parents.Toby's school now has wider geographical options for location, including Fulham and Brent and a matching spread for potential pupils. Perhaps he is doing a deal for the Hammersmith Library building!.I still do not get the obsession with Latin!We live in rapidly changing times as the effects of the coalition's policies impact on us all.

Iain Muir ● 5856d

We're holding a public meeting at the Oak Tree Community Centre on the South Acton estate tomorrow (Tuesday) at 7pm with a view to encouraging local residents to apply to the school. It's on Osborne Road, opposite the Berrymeade Primary School. I invited both Steve Pound and Nick Grant, the local NUT rep, to debate me, but after initially accepting they both declined. Iain and Jim, are you up for it? I'd love the opportunity to engage you in a proper debate.

Toby Young ● 5856d

Wot!Abandoning the Rocket and all its potential for gastro-pub sneers?Too savvy by half.

Sara Nathan ● 5856d

"Surely you would expectthem to be in the first 16 - and if not Toby's mob with its publicity-generating potential, famous front person and good connections, then who would you expect to get approved?"I'd expect them to actually have a site for the damn thing, rather than still sending out the A-Z Army.  It's a costly and nonsensical distraction from the real, pressing, urgent issue of primary school places - if Toby wants to set up a school, go ahead, but don't do it with my taxes, I want them used professionally for the good of society.  That's what I pay them for, and if money is as scarce as we're constantly being told, why divert it into uncertain PR-driven experiments without democratic oversight when there's an obvious problem needing fixing?I also resent the constant PR puffery and spin from Young and co., but it's his stock in trade, I suppose.  Insult to my intelligence, though.

Thomas Barry ● 5856d

Yes I did mean shame, sorry!

Chris Hurley ● 5855d

As far as I can see from reading most of the postings, and the vitriol poured on him, Toby Young has been very restrained and accommodating in his responses, trying to educate and engage at every opportunity.To the degree that he must have the patience of Job - compared to some of the opposition rants.

Rosco White ● 5855d

I would very much love to attend and have a good debate with you. However, as it is such short notice and I have prior commitments. I have to give my apologies.Please let me know when and where the next meeting will be and I will do my best to be there.By the way how is the meeting publicised? As I do a lot work in South Acton with The South Acton community Fitness Centre and haven't heard about this meeting happening.

Jim Wong ● 5855d

Patience of Job? Toby is getting a easy ride when he pops up on the numerous media outlets that he has access to (unless Fiona Millar is on hand).And are not Toby's detractors also trying to educate and engage with very valid counter arguments?The Free schools and Charter schools have not delivered what their supporters have promised in Sweden or the US.Far from being vitriol and rants, a lot of the debate on here have expressed these concerns backed up with the relevant evidence.On your way now Rosco, I am sure there some big truck parked badly down your street that needs your attention.Maybe you and Toby should get together and have a sherry at the local Association.

Colin Carroll ● 5855d

It says in today's Grauniad that Toby Young's school will teach Latin.What practical benefit is there to this?Surely languages like Panjabi, Hindi, Urdu, Arabic or Polish would be much more useful in west London. Or aren't these options elitist enough?

Robin Taylor ● 5855d

It is supposed to expand the mind. The local poster boy for the Govian educational revolution, keeps referring to certain research that backs this up:This is one such paper, but as we all know someone will have a paper which will say it is a load of tosh: http://teach.valdosta.edu/whuitt/files/latin.htmlI am sure the Chinese are not getting stuck in to latin as their economic juggernaut heads our way. Maybe mandarin is the language du jour.

Colin Carroll ● 5855d

Toby, thank you for the invite to the meeting. As there does not appear to have been any advertising was the meeting intended for parents who have already expressed interest? I think it unlikely that I or anyone else would accept the invite given the possibility of being a lone token debater in an uncertain environment!I see you have decided to run the school yourselves rather than sub contract. I am not sure about your links to the London Oratory. It might have the results you aspire to but I understand that parents have little influence and were at one stage 'persuaded' into 'voluntary' payments to cover a deficit in school funds. A friend on low income had real problems with this. Not good for a state school!You have also widened your potential location/pupil base to cover Hounslow, Ealing, Brent and Hammersmith & Fulham.From arguing that the school was needed to fill Ealing's potential gap in secondary places you now appear to be saying that the school will not threaten intake at schools like Acton High. A bit of a U turn?Your apparent lack of a site and widening catchment area suggests you still face significant challenge to meet your target of a start in Sept 2011.You deserve credit for your success in turning your mad idea into government approval both for the concept and in getting onto the initial list. I see there are two other potential 'free schools' in LBHF.However success does not make a bad idea good for the reasons I and others have posted here for the last year or so.Iain

Iain Muir ● 5855d

Mandarn is taught - and I believe compulsory for at least a year - at Notting Hill and Ealing High School.Not that that really adds to the debate but thought you would like to know

Sara Nathan ● 5855d

Latin is taught at Ellen Wilkinson school for Girls, which is a state school. Latin may seem to be olde fashion and not "cool", but quite useful if you want to take up a career in:* Gardening* FarmingOh yes also:* Law* MedicineNot to forget:* The Classics (BS)* The Military (Officer Class)

Jim Wong ● 5855d

The reason why many professionals that oppose the free school movement do not want to get involved in public debate is because the complex educational issues do not lend themselves well to the 2-3 minute media soundbites that TY favours.  I think it is the reponsibility of the media, including the W3 Website, to seek and report the opinions and objections of those that oppose the free schools rather than just reporting the views of TY and his steering committee.  I think it is an absolute disgrace the way that the BBC have allowed TY to use a programme like Newsnight in the way most people use Youtube.I posted a lengthy article on 24th July entitled 'Why the Free School Won't Work' in which I questioned policies regarding admissions, relationship with the LEA, curriculum and teachers' pay and conditions.  None of the steering group have yet provided answers. Now I have to get back to the serious business of using this forum to find a plumber.

Andy Magee ● 5854d

Latin & Greek roots at school, remember them?!!!At least in Oz we were taught them.VERY helpful. If you don't know what a word means you can usually work out its meaning by applying the appropriate Latin or Greek root.So, yes, Latin, at least, is useful.

Rosco White ● 5854d

Love the way someone mentions 'opposition rants' then Colin Carroll appears right on cue. Hahaha. Let me guess, Colin, you don't have any kids, do you?

Hayes Thompson ● 5854d

Since when did you have to have children to be concerned about detrimental education policies?

Andy Magee ● 5854d

Don't have kids but do work in education and have done for a long time so that might qualify me in some way.Rants? All my arguments on this subject have been backed up by supporting evidence. So run along and check on the parking on your street there might be someone parking in a disorderly manner.

Colin Carroll ● 5854d

As to Mandarin, my youngest (ex Acton HS) worked to pay for a 3 month intensive course in Beijing during his gap year. Difficult was his judgement, given the range of characters to memorise, and sadly he has not been able to follow it up whilst at Uni. I read recently that there is not much point in learning Mandarin as so many Chinese are English fluent.......Totally impressed by past BBC series on life in China with a very fluent BBC female journo in the back country happily conversing with the locals.As for Latin and Greek, not sure the old 'recognise by roots' argument still much practical use. French and German would be my current choice at secondary. Son's last year of Uni was in a shared house with French, Luxembourg and German colleagues, all with perfect English. Son has minimal French, embarrassing I think and not much different to my own education 40 plus years ago!

Iain Muir ● 5854d

What's wrong with Spanish?  Well spoken worldwide, particularly in South America and often without the extremely good English as a second language you get in India, plus it's relatively easy compared with French and German, let alone Mandarin etc.For the bright linguists, Russian.  Language teaching, and I must declare a bit of an interest as I come from a family full of linguists, is rubbish in the UK and should be fixed before allowing amateurs to set up schools with public money.

Thomas Barry ● 5854d

"Your apparent lack of a site and widening catchment area suggests you still face significant challenge to meet your target of a start in Sept 2011."Call me Mr. Naive, but a school is commonly taken to mean an institution possessing a) a site b) some pupils c) some teachers.  Has Mr. Young's Quickfit Academy got any of these?

Thomas Barry ● 5854d

"* The Military (Officer Class)"What, do the Taliban speak Latin?  I'd have thought Arabic, personally, but what do I know, I went to a comp.

Thomas Barry ● 5854d

"Language teaching... is rubbish in the UK and should be fixed..."Too right, Thomas.One of my most bitter disappointments was that they wouldn't allow me to learn French when I was at secondary modern school. They did internal streaming and decided that I was one of the youngsters who had too many problems with English, and so had to concentrate on that.This was 1974* and I blame Enoch Powell. It's precisely his type of anti-foreigner mentality that causes some Brits to take a lazy and contemptuous attitude to learning other languages. Wherever we go in the world we expect everyone else to speak to us in English.*Still, we got our own back on Powell in the following year's EEC referendum! :-)

Robin Taylor ● 5853d

I went to one the bog standard Comprehensive as well, in fact one of the worst in Ealing. But that didn't stop me having a career in IT and later as a Teacher (and Uni).Yes in the Military you need it to make up a motto for their regiment/group/unit/ship etc. :-)Not to mention BS to impress your superior and when you retired and got your job in the City you need to make an impression to you boss (ex-Military) as well.

Jim Wong ● 5853d

"One of my most bitter disappointments was that they wouldn't allow me to learn French when I was at secondary modern school"By 1983 when I started, my school was no longer a secondary modern but a middle school, and we all did French.  In the last year we did a language aptitude test (in Swedish) and those who passed went on to do German as well at upper school from 13-16.  My sister, in the same schools, eventually ended up getting a First in German and Italian from Oxford, so they must have been doing something right.Meanwhile, partly thanks to the EEC referendum result, I ended up spending a year in Germany while at university, and speak it quite well now.So, why would I support cargo-cult Fifties merchants who appear to be in total ignorance of the last thirty years in state schools?The OTPA have published a piece about the DoE failing to meet their legal requirement for answering a question about the New Schools Network and the £500,000 Michael Gove's handed them for free schools work, about £31k per school thus far.  Perhaps Toby could put a word in to get this released?  He doesn't have to ask in Latin.http://taxpayersalliance.org/news/dfe-not-so-keen-on-transparency-after-all

Thomas Barry ● 5853d

Latin a Cargo cult? Absolutely not. It's great virtue is that it trains children how to think logically and intuitively, an essential requirement if they’re going to excel in other subjects, not just languages. There is substantial evidence that children who study Latin outperform their peers when it comes to reading, reading comprehension and vocabulary, as well as higher order thinking (computation, concepts and problem solving). For chapter and verse on this see A.K. De Vane, Efficacy of Latin Studies in the Information Age (http://teach.valdosta.edu/whuitt/files/latin.html) and N. Mavrogenes, Latin in the Elementary Schools: A Help for Reading and the Language Arts (http://www.jstor.org/pss/20299547). Of course, we don't want children at the West London Free School to study Latin instead of an MFL, but as well as.

Toby Young ● 5853d

"There is substantial evidence that children who study Latin outperform their peers when it comes to reading, reading comprehension and vocabulary, as well as higher order thinking."That's not because they learnt Latin - it's because the type of parent who would put their child through a Latin class would tend to be from a professional/middle class/public school background - with all the social advantages that implies.

Robin Taylor ● 5853d

Can't we just hold fire on endless criticism of each other and give free debate a chance - idealistic I know, and I know you are all very knowledgable, but maybe...just maybe the parents of year 6 pupils and below could decide themselves, once the business plan for the free school is up and running.  Parents do tend to know best for their children.

Christine Siobhsn Oktay ● 5853d

Interested to know how many turned up from the South Acton estate in particular.

Chris Hurley ● 5853d

"That's not because they learnt Latin - it's because the type of parent who would put their child through a Latin class would tend to be from a professional/middle class/public school background - with all the social advantages that implies."Hammer/nail.I draw Mr. Young's attention to my Dad, who studied Latin and got a 2:2, and my sister and I, who didn't study Latin and got a first and a 2:1.  OK, this isn't evidence in any sane form, but since when's that stopped Toby from using it?It's a bit insulting to those of us who didn't study Latin and did perfectly well, thank you, to suggest that by preferring our own children studied more relevant subjects first we're condemning them to a lifetime of burger-flipping at McDonalds while the privileged few attending Toby's Portakabin Academies will become head of the World Bank, or something.  Ignoring all the indications of declining social mobility really doesn't wash just at the moment, least of all in London.

Thomas Barry ● 5853d

Christine, There have been lots of threads on the free school idea and lots of arguments from both sides, most of it quite civil! I do not agree with the free school idea for lots of reasons and consider their creation a diversion of scarce resources from Local Authority run local schools, like Acton High. Hence I do not want a self selecting few to have state funding for a ‘boutique’ school, Latin or not!

Iain Muir ● 5853d

News story on the Chiswick W4 front page, Perhaps The Acton editor could add this to our front page. Apologies if the cut n paste produces a strange layout!Liberal Democrats 'Sceptical' of Free Schools Toby Young 'unable' to confirm criteria for taking on teaching staff Liberal Democrat Education spokesperson Councillor Andrew Steed, says that there is still a lot about the proposed West London Free School that is unknown. At a Council scrutiny meeting, Cllr Steed said that, under questioning, Free School campaigner Toby Young was unable to indicate if the school would be up and running by September 2011, or indeed where the school would be, or from where the pupils will be drawn from.Cllr Steed said, "This level of uncertainty is a worry because of the unknown impact the proposed school will have on the local state schools. Although the Department of Education has given the green light for the proposal to proceed it seems Mr Young still does not know where the school will be located, it could be Ealing, Hammersmith or Hounslow."He added, "There was also some surprise that Mr Young could not even confirm the criteria for taking on teaching staff, i.e. if they will be qualified teachers. All the evidence is that professional staff deliver the best results and it is frankly shocking that there is even a suggestion that the teachers will not be qualified."Toby Young was speaking with local NUT spokesperson Nick Grant and Acton High Headteacher Mandy Golding at a meeting of the Ealing Council Education and Children's Services Standing Scrutiny Panel on Wednesday 8th September. September 9, 2010

Iain Muir ● 5853d

Perhaps in the same gung-ho spirit that Toby's A-Z Army have shown in pounding the streets looking for accommodation, and in the spirit of the Big Society, we will have parents teaching with a piece of chalk in one hand and Latin For Dummies in the other?  Under a tenner if you shop around online.

Thomas Barry ● 5853d

That's a misleading account of last night's meeting of the Scrutiny Panel, to put it mildly. The first part of the meeting consisted of a debate about the pros and cons of Free Schools and the West London Free School in particular. I put the case for, Nick Grant put the case against, while Mandy Golding sounded some notes of caution but did her best to remain above the fray. After a robust exchange of views, the three of us were then cross-examined by a group of Councillors representing all three political parties as well as members of the public. The debate lasted approximately 90 minutes, at which point another matter was discussed and then the Panel took a vote. They decided by a substantial majority to recommend to Cabinet that Ealing Council not obstruct my group's plans to set up a Free School.If Cabinet decides to follow this recommendation, which I trust it will, I hope we can put these disagreements behind us and work together to ensure that the West London Free School becomes a valuable addition to the wide array of educational choices available to the people of Ealing and the neighbouring boroughs. Not only does it seem likely at this stage that the Labour group on Ealing Council will not stand in our way, it seems overwhelmingly probable that the Labour Party as a whole will not oppose Free Schools, given that David Miliband will almost certainly be the Party's next leader. No doubt Free Schools will continue to have their detractors, but with so many thoughtful people on the left as well as the right now coming round to them – not just the Labour and Lib Dem Councillors who voted not to obstruct our school last night, but President Obama, Tony Blair, David Miliband, Andrew Adonis and many, many more – perhaps the opponents of our school in this borough could take a second look at our proposals. We really do want to create a truly outstanding school that benefits children from all parts of the local community and we hope to work closely with the borough's existing schools, including Acton High, to achieve that aim.

Toby Young ● 5853d

"Interested to know how many turned up from the South Acton estate in particular."Chris, you're a scream! Thanks for giving me a badly needed laugh.(NB: For the benefit of those who don't recognise irony: the West London Free School is most certainly NOT being set up to help the type of people who live on the South Acton estate).

Robin Taylor ● 5853d

Gosh, Toby in Instant Rebuttal mode......does he have special software? I have asked for clarification on Ealing Labour Group's view. Not sure President Obama's view counts for much in Acton. Recent research has been critical of both the American and Swedish models that Toby has praised. See http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/cifamerica/2010/aug/31/gove-obsession-tory-academy-charterHo Hum......

Iain Muir ● 5853d

There are many unqualified "Teachers" in the Independent school sector, whihc is not always known to the fee paying parents. The most famous case was the former Headmaster of one couldn't teach in a state school, as he is not a qualified teacher though he had been "teaching" in the Independent Sector for many years.

Jim Wong ● 5853d

Tisn't always a bad thing: my husband - director of Music at the Yehudi Menuhin School - has no formal teaching qualification neither do many of his teaching staff. But they are consummate musicians and music teachers for all that and a PGSE probably wouldn't have made a difference.

Sara Nathan ● 5853d

As he is Music professional of many year (I assmued) and qualified in some ways) that wouldn't matter so much, but I am talking about the main stream education sector teaching the "normal" subjects (English, Maths, Science etc..)Being a slightly picky it is PGCE and not PGSE.

Jim Wong ● 5853d

I would just like to state that my son is in Acton High Year 10 and having an excellent education, my daughter in Ellen Wilkinson - entirely her choice and my youngest starting Derwentwater.  I live in social housing and have long been a believer that we need to break the glass ceiling of English class.  Optomistic I know, but believe me it is not Latin nor music that spurs me on, and I have been following all the threads and recognise your knowledge as sound, but I am weary of cynicism and look to progress - from whatever source!

Christine Siobhsn Oktay ● 5853d

Toby,I would be interested to know the policies on recruitment and retention of staff.Teachers in LEA schools are bound by school teachers’ pay and conditions.  They also benefit from workload agreements.  Will the Free School follow the same pay, conditions and workload agreements or will they expect teachers to work longer or shorter hours for more or less money?  Will teachers be expected to invigilate, photocopy and supervise lunch duty or will they be freed up to plan, teach and mark?  If they run after school, lunchtime or holiday clubs will they be paid extra or will this be part of their contract?  Will staff have an entitlement to continuous professional development?  Will there be a maximum class size at Key Stage 3, 4 and 5?  I notice that the Free School wants to offer a number of shortage subjects.  As a comprehensive, inner-London school they are likely to find it hard to recruit teachers for them.  Will they use financial incentives to poach them from existing schools? LEA schools are only allowed to recruit qualified teachers.  Independent schools can employ whom they choose.  Will the Free School insist on teachers having UK Qualified Teaching Status?  Unqualified, Teach First and newly qualified teachers are far cheaper to employ than fully qualified, more experienced teachers.  However, it is important to get the balance of wisdom and enthusiasm correct. 

Andy Magee ● 5853d

The Voice of Reason ..............................

Rosco White ● 5852d

'That's a misleading account of last night's meeting of the Scrutiny Panel, to put it mildly'....the irony, TY complaining that somebody has used their access to the media to mislead.

Andy Magee ● 5852d

Mr White the reason for your voice?

Colin Carroll ● 5852d

Irrespective of your husband's professional experience he could not teach a GCSE class in a state school unless he had QTS. He would have to take a PGSE or GTP to qualify.There is a growing trend for music establishments requiring their music teachers to under go teacher training as part of their CPD as it makes them more authentic.It may seem idiotic but in the world we live in, those that call the shots require more than musical ability as evidence of teaching ability. The Federation of Music Services is starting to implement it's "Standards" for music teachers lots of paperwork to prove that you can teach.

Colin Carroll ● 5852d

"Ealing Council will not stand in our way, it seems overwhelmingly probable that the Labour Party as a whole will not oppose Free Schools, given that David Miliband will almost certainly be the Party's next leader."So Dave won't be getting my vote then.I wonder how the Swedes will be voting this month?

Colin Carroll ● 5852d

Errrrrr, "Christine Siobhsn Oktay" - I felt her posting was the Voice of Reason. That is, reasonable!!I apologise if I have upset you Mr Carroll.

Rosco White ● 5852d