Forum Topic

Toby's free school on BBC2 tonight

1900 for half an hour as part of their "schools" season.Wonder if it will say anything new

Sara Nathan ● 5833d35 Comments

It's actually an hour long http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b00v1zk5Don't know whether I'll last that long...

Lorna Dodd ● 5833d

It's rather astonishing how vitriolic Twitter becomes whenever Mr. Potato Head appears on the TV.  Given that he's supposed to be the high profile head of a new movement intended to attract pupils away from normal education, you'd have thought he'd make more of an effort not to alienate people, but I suppose if you've only got one talent you have to make the most of it.

Thomas Barry ● 5833d

Well, I take it all back! I'm still not convinced by Toby or his proposals, but I thought it was a riveting programme...(But what's all this obsession with Latin...?)

Lorna Dodd ● 5833d

I half watched it whilst cooking, will watch again on iplayer. Am minded of the (alledged) Alistair Campbell quote about when the person becomes more discussed than the issue, time to dump the person (or thereabouts) Perhaps the only way to save Toby School is for the rest of the cabal to sack him, latest sacking in his long tradition....

Iain Muir ● 5833d

Just watched on iplayer...the wholly Toby focus could be real - in which case rather a danger/threat to the possible school I would imagine - or it could be a TV documentary created artefact in order to create a strong narrative round a lead character.But it did seem a bit shambolic.The latin is surely the USP to distinguish it from other schools.

Sara Nathan ● 5833d

There are plenty of state schools that teach Latin from Year 8.  In this area I know of Chiswick Community College and Ellen Wilkinson High School.  There may be others locally so I'm not sure that this is a USP.

Nigel Williams ● 5833d

I am sorry to say that though the programme was intriguing it seemed more like a docusoap and certainly ready made for lampooning.  The best parts for me was when the kids asked him to justify his stance and he had no answers.  I also did not appreciate the scoffing at objectors who accused him of class wars or the fact that the current schools have too wide a curriculum.  This is an expensive experiment driven by self interest not philanthropy, we all want the best for our children, but not to the exclusion of others.

Christine Siobhsn Oktay ● 5832d

I think Toby's quite used to "winning friends and alienating people" (after all, he did write a book on the topic), and agree or not with him, he is getting his message across and is prepared to invite lampooning in the process.  You gotta hand it to him!

Anne Brown ● 5832d

He certainly managed it for me on last week's "This Week"...highl;y recommended viewing before it disappears off the i-player this eve...

Emily West ● 5832d

which?

Sara Nathan ● 5832d

alienating people...certainly not winning friends. especially not andrew mcneil!

Emily West ● 5832d

He's Scottish to his toes but I think it's just Neil - no Mc

Sara Nathan ● 5832d

oops sorry i always say that too...i fully know it's not right. too scottish to leave it off it seems

Emily West ● 5832d

I couldn't bring myself to watch the programme beacuse I object so strongly to the school and the motives behind it. But re the Latin question I can tell you that although Acton High didn't teach it when my daughter wanted to do it, they supported her to the hilt and she went on to get a Classics degree from Cambridge. And she came through it as a rounded person who can get on with anyone, thanks to her brilliant Acton High education. Knowing how to work effectively in a team with people from different backgrounds is an essential skill for almost any job - will the young people learn that at Toby's school?

Anne Wilson ● 5832d

Just watched it and Toby and the steering committee came across as I have regular portrayed them in posts on here as a self interested middle class group who do not reflect most of the population of this town. Loved the bit where the kids from the Bridge saw through Toby's BS about latin. They will be getting a gold star from me tomorrow.The sad thing is that he will get his way but even with an hour of TV airtime he still did not manage to put forward a convincing argument as to why we should indulge him and his friends in this folly.Maybe he is trying to surpass his father in founding a truly ground breaking academic establishment, somehow I do not think the OU has much to worry about.

Colin Carroll ● 5832d

I am afraid that I went to Toby's first meeting because I really thought he wanted to set up a truly comprehensive school and had visions of kids who never got a chance in life ending up at Oxbridge!  However, from that first meeting it was clear that it was full of the kind of people who would have sent their kids to Latymer, Notting Hill & Ealing, etc, and were actually more interested in setting up the school to serve their own ends than doing something genuinely altruistic.  Also, it was when Toby mentioned the fact that he had set up a film production company to document it that I was really put off.

Anne Brown ● 5831d

Why was he at the polling station at St Albans?  I thought he lived 'this side of the tracks'?I have to say, I spent most of the programme location-spotting or shouting at the telly.

Gill Hothersall ● 5828d

definitely the other side - it looked like Shaa Road surely.

Sara Nathan ● 5828d

It is indeed, although it gives a whole new dimension to the idea of 'the wrong side of the tracks!' I stumbled on the programme by accident, I missed the start, but I did find it interesting. For me, both the strength and weakness of the show was its almost exclusive focus on Toby Young himself: a strength, because one felt one got to know him a little; a weakness, because, whatever the genesis of the local plan, it surely is not to stand or fall on the basis of the ambitions and preferences of one man, however strong his personality. It was clear, however, that the film-makers see the commercial potential of their episodic offerings as being very much based on viewing life through Toby's eyes (as the 'famous' one.) I would be loth to draw conclusions from the programme as to the philosophy or objectives of other members of the WLFS group; suffice to say that, at best, the editing didn't do them any favours in rebutting suggestions of narrowly based self-interest. I came to the view that Toby Young does have good intentions on diversity of intake, but I didn't pick that up from others and, as a teacher pointed out to him, the school will be inundated with applications from affluent parents for whom that agenda is in no sense a priority. I agree with the comments that we never got to the bottom of what the school is for or why it would be a valuable addition to our society (as opposed to a cheap alternative to private school for the urban middle-class.) The tantalising 'to be continued' nature of the ending is what gave me real pause for thought. Just eleven months from now, the WLFS group says it wants to be educating some of our young people. It doesn't have premises (anyone know where the secret 'building that looks like a school' actually is? Hounslow?), therefore all of the other obstacles ahead of it - infrastructure, governance, numbers, head teacher, staff, curriculum - can't be resolved. Yes, it has the political wind in its sails, and that nice Mr Gove is very keen to throw our money at it (while withholding it from a new state school in the north of the borough), but even if one wished the project well - and I don't - it all looks very rushed.Doubtless all will be revealed in due course.

Steve Donnelly ● 5828d

"Doubtless all will be revealed in due course."Why not make 'em reveal it now?  Stick a Freedom of Information request in.  As you can see from this one, there's no guarantee Gove will *answer* it, but that in itself is fairly revealing:http://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/dfe_relationship_with_new_school

Thomas Barry ● 5828d

Sorry to disabuse Nigel Williams but Chiswick Community School's only Latin teacher left in the summer and hasn't been replaced. So that will be one state school that offers Latin in the area, then...

Anthony Jones ● 5828d

Acton High offers Latin as an extension course.

Guy Fiegehen ● 5828d

Followers of this thread may be interested in reading the written submission from Acton High School to the meeting on 8th September of the Council's Education Scrutiny Panel. It has recently been added to the Council's website along with the minutes of the meeting.The submission covers our sixth form and responds to some recent criticisms of the school's educational philosophy and methods.Go tohttp://www.ealing.gov.uk/services/council/committees/agendas_minutes_reports/scrutiny/education_and_childrens_services_standing_scrutiny_panel/25may2010-23may2011.htmland then click on item 7, Acton High School Submission.

Guy Fiegehen ● 5826d

Thanks Guy - inspiring stuff. I gave a big cheer after reading this, but also understand why the governors think it would be distracting to get caught up in the media debate. I do hope the Sixth Form becomes a reality.

Anne Wilson ● 5826d

The question people keep asking me after seeing the programme is this: You've been working every hour of the day for over a year to try and set up an outstanding state secondary school that will be accessible to all the children in your area. You're not being paid and there's no guarantee that your own children will even get in to the school. Yet in spite of this you're seen as the devil incarnate by the teaching unions, the left, the educational establishment, et al. Why is that?

Toby Young ● 5826d

Well for me it was the comment "shouldn't one of the purposes of a school be to tell children what they should be interested in" (at about 37:50 on the i-player). Then there was also the bit where you were talking about places for the site and dismissed one because your kids wouldn't be in the catchment area, that doesn't really support your claim made above much does it...?

Emily West ● 5826d

Toby, I certainly don't believe in personalising these things although, as I said earlier in the thread, I'm not sure that the nature of the programme did you, or your group, any favours in that regard.I guess it's a compliment that you've been granted satanic status, but it's not wholly surprising that you're seen to embody the free school movement, given the number of newspaper and magazine articles by and about you, plus all the TV and radio you've done. You're seen as a determined and energetic operator; one with good contacts, and one that's used to getting what he wants when he sets his mind to it. Who you are, and where we live, have served to boil up a high profile and sometimes unpleasant debate. If people have kicked back at you personally that's to be regretted, but I'm afraid was a predictable result of you coming to be seen as the 'leader' of the whole free school movement (a role I'm sure you did not seek and do not want.)For my part, as I also said earlier, I believe that you're sincere. But if some of your opponents have caricatured you as dead set upon the destruction of state education as we know it, so some us us have felt our opposition represented by you as luddite and regressive. We too are sincere: sincere in believing that your school (and its ilk) will destabilise state education across our community; sincere in believing that, whatever your intentions, your idea will be annexed by the affluent; sincere in believing, after seeing the programme, that for all your irrepressible energy, your group is not ready to run a school.Whatever happens, Free School or no, life will go on, and all of us in Acton will have to get on with it. In my personal daydream, Toby Young will become an influential parent governor at Acton High, and the school, replete with new 16+ building, will become the envy of London. Who knows? Meantime, although I wouldn't open your school, I'd gladly buy you a pint should we bump into each other...

Steve Donnelly ● 5826d

Can you be a straw man and a tall poppy - to mix agricultural metaphors?If so, you are it.Maybe people resent the unremiting self-publicity that seems to be the major product- or possibly byproduct - of your campaign so far.You know yourself that doing things through the media is high-risk. You've taken the risk. It may pay off in the long term but in the short time is predictably painful.

Sara Nathan ● 5826d

Toby, I don't think you're the 'devil incarnate'. I, as a teacher of 5 years' standing, just think you have a simplistic view of the comprehensive system.To say the comprehensive system has 'failed', as you have, is such a generalisation. Yes, of course it fails some, but there are plenty, a majority I would contend, that it doesn't fail. Please don't lose sight of the number of damaged and deprived children that state schools have to deal with on a daily basis and the constant struggle that that entails.I have some sympathy with your concern about schools' social agenda, about this obsession with creating 'good citizens'. But I assume you are also concerned about vomit-soaked streets on a Friday night; about an ebbing of public generosity of spirit; about the woefully low voting rate amongst the young. I assume you agree that schools have a role to play in educating the whole child, not just the academic side.No, I don't think you're the 'devil incarnate' but I do think you should send your kids to Acton High. Stay inside the tent and, if need be, piss into it...

Anthony Jones ● 5826d

Thanks for the thoughtful response Steve. I didn't mean to come across as defensive – but the vitriol can be quite vicious sometimes. To give just one example, a BBC radio disc jockey tweeted the following while watching the programme: "I don’t think there’s been one person yet on Toby Young’s BBC2 documentary about starting a school that I wouldn’t happily punch to death." That was a little upsetting given that all four of my children were seen throughout the documentary.I don't doubt your sincerity and I thank you for not doubting mine. Let me reassure you on a couple of points. You say that the West London Free School will destabilise state education across our community. In fact, we are taking great pains to minimise any disruption our school is likely to cause. We're in more or less constant touch now with officers and members in Ealing, Hounslow and Hammersmith and Fulham and we take any concerns they express very seriously. To give just one example, we want the majority of the children at our school to be admitted by lottery so we won't just be sourcing pupils from the local community. No danger, then, that any of the local schools will become undersubscribed as a result of our school opening.You said that my group didn't look ready to run a school, judging from the documentary, but that's a little unfair given that our group now includes John Macintosh who ran the London Oratory very successfully for 29 years. But, as you know, it won't be my group running the school. John is helping us recruit a head teacher and, once he or she is in place, we'll jointly recruit a Senior Management Team. They're the people who'll be running the school. Some of us will probably become governors, but nearly every school in the country has at least one parent governor. I don't suppose the governance of our school and the way it's run will be very different from the way most other schools operate, including Acton High School.Your third point, that there is a danger that the school will be hijacked by the affluent, is a good one. Another reason for proposing to admit a majority of students by lottery is that it will prevent middle class parents effectively buying a place at the school by moving into the catchment area. Of course, it's possible that middle class parents will be more likely to enter the lottery than non-middle class parents, but we hope to combat that with our communications strategy. Expect to get a leaflet about the school through your door in the not too distant future. There may be other things we can do to ensure it has a broad and fully inclusive intake, too. Michael Gove has talked about changing the Admissions Code to allow schools to give priority to applicants who are eligible for Free School Meals. If he does, we'll certainly take advantage of that mechanism.I honestly believe that a lot of your fears about the likely impact of our school – both on the children who go there and on those at surrounding schools – are misplaced. Time will tell, but I hope that thoughtful, sensible people such as yourself will eventually come to approve of the West London Free School.

Toby Young ● 5826d

Toby I do no think that the vitriol that the programme elicited was not just confined to Tweets from radio djs, there was some surprising reactions over on the W4 site.A lot of them seem to have been in keeping with what I have said of the past few months but with a lot more aggression.I did quite enjoy your encounter with the students at the Bridge, trying to sell Latin as a way to improve their lot,I work with these kids and they can smell BS a long way off.Comedy gold.At the end of the day it came across as Five Go Mad in Education all it needed was for you to substitute the wine for lashings of ginger beer.

Colin Carroll ● 5826d

Toby,In Acton and West London there are a variety of comments about free schools. However those people in glass houses should not throw stones. I have read what I think are rude comments previously coming from your greenhouse. Residents have concerns and if you can answer any confusion / lack of clarity then that is useful.

Gary Malcolm ● 5825d

Gary are you some sort of eastern mystic?What the hell are you on about?Stop smoking the local weed and make a sensible and coherent contribution.

Colin Carroll ● 5825d

The subject I believe is free schools and the ethics of a local protaganist - Toby Young.  Unfortunately the documentary that was supposed to dispel criticism has only confirmed my worse fears and that, I feel, is what should be debated.  Why has Toby Young got a license to follow his peronsal 'vision', when the majority of parents actually work quite hard at making the best of local schools and supporting the staff there to achieve more.  Acton High is a great school - if you want a classical education choose the subjects that pertain to that- they are available at local schools or schools are prepared to submit students for additional exam subjects.  We do not need to build separate empires, just build on the existing foundations for our 'Big Society' to grow.

Christine Siobhsn Oktay ● 5824d

I know it won't affect my life at all but it seems on the face of it that if this school is no good then it will go under.Maybe it will be a lot better than local schools.Maybe that's what's worrying those with a vested interest in maintaining the status quo.Competition usually raises standards by making people up their games doesn't it?I wonder how many of us,if we were to  go on national tv and espouse our ideas would come across as the reasonable,self effacing and patient people we all see our selves as.Rasrely do others see us as we see ourselves.

Keith Iddon ● 5824d