Forum Topic

Prisoners to get landline telephones in cells.

I have just heard that a pilot scheme is to go on trial by giving prisoners phones in their cells, in an effort to stamp out illegal mobile phones.Is this pampering, or making the life of prison officers easier.  The most likely place to trial this, is at HMP Isis young offenders institution in south London.What next: prisoners demanding to be let out, so that they can get back in?If this scheme goes ahead, will the process be monitored, will it create more criminal activity behind bars, aid escapes, run businesses and/or place orders for drugs?Is this rewarding bad behaviour?

Nicola Howard ● 5479d56 Comments

What next, 24 hour visiting?! It certainly won't make PO's lives any easier...in fact it won't even stamp out the illegal mobiles. The hard criminals will know the landline calls are monitored and so will still want to have illegal mobiles to carry on their criminal activities...

Alison Cheyney ● 5479d

I first heard this on LBC radio today, and the amount of people phoning in thought the whole thing preposterous.  Quite a lot of outrage.it looks like this institution has all mod-cons.

Nicola Howard ● 5478d

"g If this scheme goes ahead, will the process be monitored, will it create more criminal activity behind bars, aid escapes, run businesses and/or place orders for drugs?"No they will be dialling out for pizza.

Colin Carroll ● 5478d

The prisoners are treated better than pensioners - time for a swop?

Jean F Fernandez ● 5478d

Have you been in a prison recently Jean?Prisoners are not treated better. There isn't one prison or young offenders institution that I have visited that I would readily spend a single night in.Prisoners are punished by having their liberty removed. I think that if phones in the cells helps them to retain contact with their families and loved ones, then when they get out they will have a greater chance of having normal lives.

Sara Nathan ● 5478d

Teach these wayward strays music and, give their fingers something constructive to do!Come on Sara, as a pensioner I have to make every penny count, and that is not easy by the way we are getting screwed these days with the cost of living going up on a daily basis.Prisoners get everything given to them.  They don't have to worry about paying the bills or how much food costs etc.  I take it your role was as a visiting JP.Having looked on the prisons web site, some of these places look like home from home.  Sorry I just can't sympathize with you.

Nicola Howard ● 5478d

No not a JPEither as an attendee at Pimlico Opera or as chair of the custody sub-group of the Commssion on youth crime and anti social behaviour.

Sara Nathan ● 5478d

If you really think prison's so comfy, Nicola, then go out and riot, get yourself put away for a few months.

Susan Kelly ● 5478d

It's strange though how the people who are assigned to judge the conditions in prison are usually from wealthy,middle class and a relatively prosperous background.Their idea of hardship when growing up would be something like only going to a minor public school,not being able to renew the car every year or only holidaying abroad once a year.

Keith Iddon ● 5478d

Probably because - if it's true - those are the people who volunteer.Mark you, how do you know that is true?"Their idea of hardship when growing up would be something like only going to a minor public school" i think is a bit Downton Abbey or passe from what I have seen of those interested in prisons!

Sara Nathan ● 5478d

Yeah,the rest of us don't volunteer probably because we have to go to work and bring up families when these people are doing their volunteering.Not being able to be in touch with family and loved ones might just be a reminder of why the person is in nick and a reminder that prison is there to take away liberty and not to provide services liker these.It also might put people off wanting to go back.Who says they will be phoning family and loved ones anyway?

Keith Iddon ● 5478d

Suppose it depends which prison,  these new ones are state of the art.  Sorry not into riots, prefer council bashing.

Nicola Howard ● 5478d

But if you mostly want less re-offending and fewer people in prisons, then encouraging them to be in touch with their families is one of the few effective things you can do. I don't think that makes prison a cushy number necessarily.Lots of volunteers work and bring up families or work and have brought up families. You know the expression "if you want something done, ask a busy person"? I think it probably applies to volunteers of many sorts as well.And just because people are not working for money - maybe they are retired or full-time carers, doesn't mean they are either rich or middle-class (not that that's a bad thing to be!)

Sara Nathan ● 5478d

The regime we have now doesn't work.Look at the re-offending rates.Simples,innit?The way it works now is that the lives of prisoners are made easier so that the understaffed prison service staff can also have an easier life.Drugs in prison?Who do you think bring them in?

Keith Iddon ● 5478d

No,isn't a bad thing as such but it does not qualify anyone to define hardship as they have no experience of it.It's a paternalistic,almost Victorian concept that makes these people feel better about themselves far more than it actually improves thge system so it works better.The best way to improve a prison is to make it unattreactive as a option so that fewer lives are blighted by re-offending.

Keith Iddon ● 5478d

Are you suggesting that prison staff are corrupt?Maybe they should have a pat down and scan before clocking on!The YOI that will probably trial this scheme is in S.E.28 and, not to be confused with HMP Belmarsh, which is next door.

Nicola Howard ● 5478d

I'm not suggesting all prison staff are corrupt Nicola,but you are fooling yourself and no-one else if you think this doesn't happen.Everyone else,particularly visitors,are closely monitored in prison.How do YOU think contraband gets into prisons?

Keith Iddon ● 5478d

Sara, you must realise that the majority of those in prison are re-offenders. They come from families who are also in and out of prison. Children follow the example of their parents.  For example, children who are beaten, will probably go on to beat their own children. And thus the sorry state of affairs continues. Rob, beat, get caught some times and back into prison - is a way of life.  Go live in a Council house/flat and find out for yourself.Encouraging prisoners to keep in touch with their families may not therefore be best way forward.  You need to separate such people (especially the young) from their families in order to get them out of crime.The dictionary meaning of the word PRISON:a building to which people are legally committed as a punishment for a crime or while awaiting trial.So prison is a punishment for a crime - not a nice cosy hotel in which to leave rent free. Take a look through some Acton residents windows, and you will notice that they live in a state far less comfortable that that of a prison - especially an 'open' prison.  We are not talking about he 'high security' prisons which is another thing altogether.

Dee Cook ● 5478d

Good question.  Maybe the PO's need a recreational fix!  Do they get it from the cons?I know there have been cases where PO's have taken drugs into prisons.  Pentonville features quite high.

Nicola Howard ● 5478d

I'm happy for you Nicola that you can find humour in this.What is your secret?Has someone smuggled something hallucenogenic into your tea,perhaps?

Keith Iddon ● 5478d

You have made a good point Dee.One that I was trying to get across.

Keith Iddon ● 5478d

The pilot is to be in a young offenders Institution isn't it? If you talk to people who work in such places, who are wholly aware that the prisoners come from poor backgrounds and are prone to re-offend, they will tell you that keeping familial contact, re-establishing contact with fathers if lost, maintaining contacts with partners and children - and yes there are kids in YOIs with children of their own - all helps to reduce re-offending.At the moment about 75% of young offenders serving a custodial sentence will re-offend within a year of release. That certainly doesnt help you or me as worthy tax-payers. In fact it is a wholesale waste of resources. There is no evidence whatsoever that separating the majority of imprisoned young people from their families will decrease re-offending. And while there are a few prisoners for whom prison/YOI is a haven from the even worse problems outside, can you imagine what those must be for that to be the case? I haven't been to a fully open prison I don't think (unless HMP Cordingley is one but I don't think so) But the YOIs vary quite a bit in regime and still, even at the least repressive, few would choose to stay longer than they absolutely had to - even with the prospect of phones in their rooms.

Sara Nathan ● 5478d

My son's experience of dealing with children who do not fit into a school environment lies, not with the children, but the parents - who could not care a toss (excuse the language) about the children they have borne.My experience of life says you can prove anything with statistics, just depends on what you want people to believe.  Just because there is no published evidence, does not mean that the evidence in fact is not there.  It is just hidden - swept under the carpet so you and me don't get to hear about it.You need to actually live in an area where these continually imprisioned people come from to understand what they are thinking, and why they behave as they do.  Proper 'professional' thieves build into their lifestyle a period of time in prison, but then they don't live in Council houses do they.A difficult thing to understand when you live in a house worth some £800,000!! go out to eat/the theatre twice a week and have a nice family life.  What you don't see everyday you do not know about.Go live in a problem council estate for 6 months and see what's going on........and thank your lucky stars you live where you do.An extremely difficult problem which is not helped by politicians playing about with it.

Dee Cook ● 5478d

"A difficult thing to understand when you live in a house worth some £800,000!! go out to eat/the theatre twice a week and have a nice family life.  What you don't see everyday you do not know about."Pots and kettles Doris? Why do you - in your equally/even more expensive house know any better? At least I have been into the relevant institutions and met numbers of victims of crime. I've read the research and heard informed people speak.We may disagree (as so often) but there is no reason for your opinion to be any more evidence-based than mine. You really can't just dismiss proper research and investigation as "you can prove anything with statistics" It's quite difficult to prove anything without.

Sara Nathan ● 5477d

Do you think the prison staff aren't monitored too? They are subject to searches and visits from drug dogs, plus prison security monitors suspicious behaviour very closely.Also, don't assume that POs are all in for an easy life, sitting in an office drinking tea while the prisoners are locked up....it's far from that....How do I unsubscribe from notifications on a post?!

Alison Cheyney ● 5477d

KeithI don't find anything humoresque in this post.Prisons and YOIs are for punishment and, to protect the public.It sounds as if someone on this string is a PO and,there is one with a legal brain (not mentioning names.)The only person to smuggle something into my caffeine fix is the manufacture.

Nicola Howard ● 5477d

I think you can only unsubscribe from ALL notifications on ALL posts. You can't opt for "nothing about prisons" or "nothing posted by Doris, Keith or Sara"It's not a very refined system!

Sara Nathan ● 5477d

Doris, would you please try and engage your brain before you post? There are just under 4 million LA and HA Homes in England and slightly less private renters. What makes you lump all LA tenants with the Shameless stereotype? What evidence do you have? or is it just a Daily Mail view of the world....I am proud to have been born in a council home, sad that it has more than likely now been sold off and used as a buy to let at maximum rent to a family with no chance to buy in our crazy housing market.PS, on a separate note where did you get it into your head that you need a dropped kerb to have a wheelie bin??? try visiting places that have them before posting ignorant nonsense... Take Care

Iain Muir ● 5477d

What's this Iain, Hi-Jacking my post, to have a rant at Dee/Doris.Anyway your old council home has probably been sold to some do-gooder for use as a hostel for, ex-cons, drug addicts and, prostitutes.

Nicola Howard ● 5477d

Ian,I don't think Dee was referring to every single person who ever grew upon a council estate, but to some of the families who live on 'sink'estates,deprivation cycles and all.

Keith Iddon ● 5477d

Like Iain, I was born and raised on council estates, but they have changed out of all recognition. In the 60s there would be only a handful of problem families on any given estate; now it's the 'respectable' families that are in the minority.

Susan Kelly ● 5477d

Sums the world up!

Lesley Russell ● 5477d

Ian:'What evidence do you have?'My eyes and ears and contact with those who live on Council estates/homes rented to Council tenants.'...get it into your head that you need a dropped kerb to have a wheelie bin???'Not my head, but the Health and Safety Directorate's head.  Wheelie bins when full are heavy (and of course residents always put too much in them, including things they should not).  and unless they are wheeled along a pavement/roadway that is level and in good condition they are liable to topple and crush the operative/children or residents passing by.'I am proud to have been born in a council home, sad that it has more than likely now been sold off'Perhaps that was a long time ago and you have, by working hard moved on to better things.  Times have changed and the days when estates were nice/neat/clean places to live, have I am afraid, long gone.  But there are pockets of smaller estates where the residents care about what's going on around them and by their own endeavours ensure that it is safe for their children to play outside their homes.

Dee Cook ● 5477d

'Pots and kettles Doris? Why do you - in your equally/even more expensive house know any better?'Not know better, but having come from such a disjointed environment, have first hand knowledge.  No middle class start in life did I have.'...There isn't one prison or young offenders institution that I have visited that I would readily spend a single night in...'Can I direct you to the problems with visiting prisons encountered by Lord Longford.......'Dangerous liaisonFor 35 years he championed her cause, yet to Myra Hindley Lord Longford became a 'pestilential pain'. Duncan Staff, who knew both of them, re-examines their relationship in light of letters made public here for the first time.http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2006/oct/14/ukcrime.weekend7'it is a few years old, but may be of interest.PS:  My sister used to work in Wormwood Scrubs Prison.

Dee Cook ● 5477d

Sara,The point that is going ignored here is that one persons hardship is anothers luxury.Depends on your background and what you are used to.Still,some people have no incentive to upset the status quo I would imagine.

Keith Iddon ● 5477d

"The point that is going ignored here is that one persons hardship is anothers luxury"Is it being ignored?I don't think it is - no-one would feel luxurious in captivity of the sort we are discussing where you are locked in and up for many hours, can make no decisions about your own movements and few about your preferences and have to ask permission to do almost anything.All I am saying is that in prison - which is the punishment itself - giving prisoners fairly free access to phones might be constructive if it helps them to remain on terms with their families and dependents. Given that this - certainly among young offenders - is helpful in preventing re-offending. Which would mean we all benefit.

Sara Nathan ● 5477d

Being in prison for some people is not a punishment because things like phones etc. are provided.I have a friend from the past who went to prison for 6 mths years ago and said it was a blessed relief to get away from his life and all its complications.We'll have to disagree.Prison is not a deterrant.You only have to look at the figures and making it even more user friendly is defeating the object of it.Prisoners are more likely to stay in touch with fellow gang members nowadays than they are family.For many of them,the gangs have become their families.It's a great shame thatb the social engineering of our society has brought us to this,but successive governments with all their quangos and advisers have had all this going on under their noses for years but have not listened to the right people in most cases.Vested interests may play a part,but careerism has its place too.

Keith Iddon ● 5477d

Don't forget that some criminals treat prison/YOI as an occupational hazard, whereas some can't face the outside world as they are too institutionalized.As a response to Lord Longford and Myra Hindley, she should have been executed along with Ian Bradey.  Still one down and, one to go.

Nicola Howard ● 5476d

Don't forget that some criminals treat prison/YOI as an occupational hazard, whereas some can't face the outside world as they are too institutionalized.As a response to Lord Longford and Myra Hindley, she should have been executed along with Ian Bradey.  Still one down and, one to go.

Nicola Howard ● 5476d

No argument here Nicola.

Keith Iddon ● 5476d

This raises another question, should there be special dispensation for the death penalty.  I know the MP for Ealing (Steve Pound) wouldn't agree.

Nicola Howard ● 5476d

Blimey.......lots of post on this thread and I've only just spotted it.I too lived on a really rough Council estate and my family still live there (some of them).  It's horrid.  Less so when I was there but it still had the makings of perpetual crime.  Many of these families (not all, I stress, not all) are codependent and live in a cycle of addiction and codependency.  Many of the offenders we have in our prisons (and those not caught or prosecuted) come from abusive childhoods.  My heart goes out to them as children.  As adults too I feel for them, but they need to learn there are consequences and they have real choices as adults, unlike when they were children.  Society too needs to be "protected" from these offenders.Giving offenders telephones to stay in touch with their codependent/addictive/criminal families probably isn't a good idea, although I can see that young offenders are a very different story.  Perhaps giving criminals access to a telephone to call a therapist, a mentor or some such person would be a great idea, but I'm not sold on this as a "cure" for anything as it really doesn't address the problem at all.  The problem at its root cause is a sickness.  Throwing telephones at it isn't going to cure it.The cure?  It takes many forms I think but one of them is to address the codependent type families in our society - firstly by education of this "illness" and support to overcome/heal it.  Secondly - ownership.  When people own things and own them through "earning" them or working for them (not necessarily through being employed) they take care of them.  I really don't think that selling council homes was a bad thing........the bad thing is that they weren't replaced.  I think selling council properties has turned quite a few families away from crime.  I know this personally and have seen it happen close up many times.  This may not make a lot of sense.....I am tired, but wanted to share my thoughts on a subject I am passionate about and think I have a real understanding of.  One can feel compassion for a criminal and at the same time be firm and set boundaries.  After all, most codependent families are boundary-less.

Angela White ● 5475d

On the contrary Angela.You make a lot of sense on this posting.Very well put,if I may say so.

Keith Iddon ● 5475d

The latest government policy is to deduct money from prisoners wages to help the victims of crime.  The government say this will raise £1M a year.  Dose this apply to all prisoners or, those on work release?  How will they pay for their phone calls?

Nicola Howard ● 5471d

the government by way of the Inland Revenue can adjust tax codes to collect payments

Dee Cook ● 5470d

What a farce!http://www.lbc.co.uk/prisoners-complain-at-lack-of-sport-channels-45371

T Beme ● 5470d

Prison Break - In!
"  We got back to the jail and it was about twelve o' clock and it was locked! So I said 'what are we going to do' and they said 'it's not what we're going to do it's what you're going to do! You're going to have to climb back in'!.  "

Fred Bray ● 5469d

Well my husband would love to have Sky Sports, perhaps he should commit a crime???

Jean F Fernandez ● 5469d

Careful Fred, you should have asked for a TV in the car park!

Nicola Howard ● 5469d

What's next.  Complaints about no hacksaw blades!

Nicola Howard ● 5469d

My husband has worked in Wormwood scrubs for 25 years he got his long service medal last month but no free telephone or sky tv, I thought prison was a punishment for breaking the law, apparently not!!!!!!! they have kettles, tv, radios in their cells also the govermentnow want to be addresed as Mr as in goodmorning Mr Burglar would you like toast with your tea. Whats next on suite shower rooms from their cells?????

Diana O'Neill ● 5469d

As mentioned earlier, wouldn't it be wonderful if pensioners were loooked after so well? Not a chance!Prison sounds more like a hotel, you just don't get out much to explore the neighbourhood! Just as well as the 'guests' would no doubt be up to their old tricks again!

Jean F Fernandez ● 5469d

JeanUs pensioners could always put bars on our windows, and then demand our rights.  As long as they don't give us a mobile phone on the T Mobile/Virgin network.  Thinking of making a reservation at Holloway but, I would have to insist on being addressed as Your Majesty.

Nicola Howard ● 5469d

Just like pensioners now have to pay for any care home they may find themselves in (blood boils), perhaps criminals could also pay for their prison stay costs if indeed they have any cash or investment in their home?The inequality of it......our old need us to look after them, not make it harder.Our old are invisible.  We need to make them a priority.

Angela White ● 5469d

Care home?  That's worse than prison.  If I get to that stage, I would throw a double six and, get out fast.Fortunately at the moment I have a substantial pension but, I am feeling the pinch with the cost of living going up all the time.I agree that prisoners should contribute to their incarceration. If they want a television in their cell, they should pay the going rate of rental, (i.e. hospital rates.)  If they want Sky Sports again they should pay the going rate from their own pocket and, not from the tax payer.  Prison is such a soft option for our degenerative miscreants and, in some cases, an occupational hazard.As a pensioner, I wish I had such luxury.

Nicola Howard ● 5469d

Dee Cook "Rob, beat, get caught some times and back into prison - is a way of life.  Go live in a Council house/flat and find out for yourself." I take offence to that! I live in council housing (actually a Housing Association) and am NOTHING LIKE THAT!

Susan Hughes ● 5465d