Forum Topic

Government talk of High Performance Computing and Schools

BBC Radio 4 news reports that large well known organisations including Google and Microsoft are saying that schools should be teaching Computer Science and High Performance Computing, something I have been saying for some time.Apple now provides a computer operating system based largely on Unix-compatible Free Open Source Software (BSD) together with a few bits of restricted proprietary software.I hear that Microsoft current versions are basically Windows NT with a few tweaks, and they are not planning to introduce any totally new Operating System, although they have been playing with software compatible with Unix compatible Free Open Source Operating Systems.Unix compatible Free Open Source Software is available now, yet I find that most people in the UK are unwilling or even scared to look at it, while those who have are keen to learn more.http://www.chrisbell.org.uk

Chris Bell ● 5408d39 Comments

In fact, the average home-user would be much better off using open-source (eg. Linux with free downloads and built-in security).  The problem is of course, that most computers come with Windows already installed. I do agree that the answer is in training people - but this can take time to do.

geoffrey berg ● 5408d

At Acton High we have offered GCSE Computing for the first time this year to Year 10 and Year 11 students, as well as AS Level Computing to Gifted and Talented Year 11s. Around 50 students in Year 10 and 11 are learning how to program for the first time. We expect to offer Computer Science at A level in our new Sixth Form.The Google/Microsoft sponsored report in the news today compared programming to the new Latin. Students can study Latin at Acton High too.

Guy Fiegehen ● 5407d

A local company I know took on a boy from school for a 1 week work experience a couple of years ago. He had tried a Linux disc he found in a magazine about 5 years before, liked it, and decided to learn more.In the first two hours of the week he built a new server for the company, and by the end of the second day he had installed Linux running a database, checked that the new later database version was compatible with the original company database, and copied the entire data to the new machine. He wrote his own software to do disaster testing on the new database, and the company transferred to the new box.He already ran his own company, with over 20 servers located on the internet backbone close to the west of North America, doing all his development online there.How many school kids can afford the development software for Microsoft, together with all its proprietary restrictions on non-disclosure, users, and use? There is no peer review, and you are not allowed access to the software to run security checks,http://www.chrisbell.org.uk

Chris Bell ● 5407d

Isn't Linux just Unix with a few tweaks.Same with all the fragmented distributions

James Buchan ● 5406d

Every school kid can afford Microsoft development software, mainly because it is free.Also MS SQL Server has been proven to be more reliable, faster and have less security threats than it's equivalent.

James Buchan ● 5406d

Microsoft products that are supplied free for educational use are only made available under the condition that each and every upgrade version will be applied and paid for in full by the UK government.I do not know which of the many SQL database packages you are referring to, but postgresql is considered to be one of the best available. Some functions may be marginally better or worse than comparable databases such as Oracle, etc, but it is totally free. It is under continuous development by a and for a worldwide community. Security is always under constant review by experts around the world, including those provided by several governments and companies such as IBM and HP, and new versions are made available as soon as possible to sort any problems found.

Chris Bell ● 5406d

BSD, Linux, and other Unix compatibles such as Solaris share the same basic structure as the original Unix versions, and respond to the same basic set of commands, plus a huge amount more. There is continuous development and testing related to their standard software libraries, capabilities, modes of operation, and hardware compatibility. The various distributions then select what they consider to be sensible options to match the actual hardware together with the intended use, and offer a choice from a huge selected range of software to accompany the central operating system. Most of the software is highly configurable to achieve optimum performance. Some distributions may aim for easiest possible installation and use, others for maximum long term reliability, while some charge for a tested stable version with commercial backup. There are also special distributions dedicated to specialised uses. All are generally reliable and secure.

Chris Bell ● 5406d

Microsoft provide free editions of both their main development software Visual Studio and SQL server which can be used for free for anyone.I do not see how your second statement really proves or states anything as your comment would apply to the Microsoft equivalent. The only difference is that it is not open source.

James Buchan ● 5406d

And that explains why Linux has always had problems getting a foothold, its fragmentation.

James Buchan ● 5406d

I use the Debian distribution of Linux, which is often the standard in education and science. It supplies a standard base system with management and other common capabilities, then asks whether additional blocks are required from a selection such as desktop, database, mail server, file server, web server, print server, and DNS server. There is no point in cluttering a machine with software that is not needed, but there is a choice of additional packages supplied ready to install up to a total of over 29,000 packages in the current stable version.As an example, the Exim mail handler, originally written by Cambridge University, is suitable for a simple home computer, but is also capable of handling the mail for the 800,000 staff and students at Cambridge or the ISP Demon Internet.It is not fragmented, but there is a huge amount of choice.

Chris Bell ● 5406d

Sorry, but while the examples you quote can be used to get something to work, they would be taken as a sad inefficient joke by the FOSS community.

Chris Bell ● 5406d

Gentlemen, you're losing me and, I suspect, most Forum readers. The Google/Microsoft report that set this thread off was about the need for teaching in schools. Acton High had already made a start in offering Computer Science courses - not many other schools do this yet. For GCSE we start with Basic as recommended by the exam board and then move onto Javascript. For A Level we teach Java. Students have found this approach stimulating, and it's raised their interest in going further and working on the sort of issues I think you're talking about.

Guy Fiegehen ● 5406d

There are several programming languages available as Free Open Source Software, together with a number of software libraries. Most source code is written in high level languages with internal documentation, and published to enable further development, optimisation, security checking, and bug fixing, and there are sets of compilers to match a wide choice of hardware. Anyone can submit suggestions and requests for changes, and an army of security experts can use automated testing tools in their search for obscure problems. It is a community effort for a very large community, with a considerable amount of effort provided by businesses such as IBM and Hewlett Packard, governments, educational, and research establishments. A huge range of options are available, usually with human language textual configuration files and documentation.The various distributions select software packages for possible inclusion, adjust the default options to match their own aims, and publish proposed new versions for further testing on the huge range of available hardware.Security alerts and relevant updates are provided by the various distributions. Users are able to modify the software to suit their own requirements and add any software not included in the main distribution, although they may then be expected to arrange their own future maintenance.This kind of development is not possible when hardware or software non-disclosure restrictions apply, and few manufacturers can match this kind of effort themselves.

Chris Bell ● 5406d

Can you explain how? Visual studio is regarded as one of the best IDE's around

James Buchan ● 5406d

Visual Studio is known to be relatively easy to use, does produce a result, but that result is considered to be clumsy and bloated, not exactly High Performance Software.

Chris Bell ● 5406d

Can you provide a reference to it being clumsy and bloated, because in certain instances it will out perform C++ due to the way the JIT works.

James Buchan ● 5406d

I think teaching java or javascript is a good choice for schools. Java would provide a good understanding on the fundamentals of object orientated programming.

James Buchan ● 5406d

I still don't understand how this is somewhat better. Of course this type of development isn't possible on closed systems, but they do have a team of developers working solely on the project(s) and the outcome will be the same.

James Buchan ● 5406d

Perhaps in certain instances, my understanding is that the overall effect is different. Obviously there can be good and bad compilers, and I assume you are referring to the Microsoft C++ compiler.

Chris Bell ● 5405d

Depends what you mean by a foothold. If you're talking about as a home computing operating system, then I agree. If you want to use your machine as an appliance to edit documents, do emails, browse the internet, play games, then Windows and MacOS are more popular choices.In the business world, Linux/Unix already has a significant foothold. Most of the world's websites run a *nix, most hosting companies use a *nix

Adam Hammond ● 5405d

Huh! You are not selling your case here, I'm not sure what agenda you are pushing, but using technical jargon likes this works against you. What relevance does "human language textual configuration files" have to anything?As an employee of a very large IT company who is an active supporter of open source (and closed source) software, I'm just looking for school leavers and graduates who think that IT is more than just writing Excel spreadsheets (or if I'm lucky, writing some macros). I want to see people who understand under the covers, who can code, who can translate business requirements into deliverable IT projects. I don't really care whether they use open or closed source stuff to do it with.So - I applaud Acton High for their initiative.

Adam Hammond ● 5405d

"I'm not sure what agenda you are pushing, but using technical jargon likes this works against you. What relevance does "human language textual configuration files" have to anything?"The directory /etc (stands for Extended Textual Configuration) should contain locally selected option files, although I would not expect someone who does not see beyond M$ Windows to know that.http://www.chrisbell.org.uk

Chris Bell ● 5405d

'And that explains why Linux has always had problems getting a foothold, its fragmentation.''... Windows and MacOS are more popular choices.'I have read all the previous messages, and still think that the main reason for Linux etc. not 'getting a foothold' is that it is not pre-installed.  As this makes it easier for the big corporations to manage their customers and sell them more software - there's not likely to be any change.

Geoffrey Berg ● 5405d

Companies such as Dell can undercut anyone building to order, but they ensure that any box they supply only just matches the specification. I have been told that they are notorious for following up a corporate sale and adding profit with a stream of Must-Have add-on goodies. It has been common for a hardware warranty to be conditional on retaining the original Operating System.There is a chicken and egg situation with a lack of qualified teachers, although Microsoft Lock-In is being whittled away or totally bypassed. On the other hand it is NOT too difficult to start learning given a few pointers to information and occasional help from the community, although everyone is expected to at least attempt to RTFM. There are plenty of advanced courses for anyone interested in continuing further.http://www.chrisbell.org.uk

Chris Bell ● 5405d

"Companies such as Dell can undercut anyone building to order"True"but they ensure that any box they supply only just matches the specification"Doesn't every company offer a basic system. Have you looked at the dell web site? They do have a large range of computers on there."I have been told that they are notorious for following up a corporate sale and adding profit with a stream of Must-Have add-on goodies."I have not experienced this in my last two companies where I have dealt with Dell."It has been common for a hardware warranty to be conditional on retaining the original Operating System."Thats a load of rubbish

James Buchan ● 5405d

No I was referring to interpreted vs compiled languages. Although I see no issue with the Microsoft c++ compiler.

James Buchan ● 5405d

If you want great young programmers you need to leave the UK.  I currently work with an Armenian based programmer.  All over Eastern Europe and Central Asia there are brilliant young people working on IT for a fraction of the cost of doing it in the UK - I get my programming cheaper and the programmer has a high standard of living in their own country.  Everyone's a winner.I find it ironic that schools in the developing world are currently undergoing the same transition which we have already had, going from 'informatics' lessons (ie programming) to the use of ICT as a learning tool (ie, using programs such as Word, PPT, Excel, etc in lessons rather than knowing how it works).  We need the middle ground and both MS and FOSS should be taught and the kids should be allowed to choose which one to specialise in later down the line. Why do people hate Microsoft so much?  They really aren't the antichrist... Google is the one to watch out for, I find their ethics seriously terrifying. MS have had their day, they will have to adapt or die.  I've had discussions with the Mongolian Ministry of Education about costs of their MS licensing for schools and was practically laughed out of the meeting. Turns out they buy all their MS software in pirate copies direct from China and pay MS nothing on licenses... easy.  Central Asia are also massive on FOSS and MS knows this, so they can't push too hard or they'll lose even more market share.  They really aren't that powerful anymore.

Sarah Harris ● 5405d

Chris, it doesn't really matter though if someone uses Windows or not. The idea is to get an understanding of how to program, not to find your way around a command prompt/ shell.Your just trying to push your own agenda

James Buchan ● 5405d

I meet plenty of people running small to medium IT businesses, those that have tried Linux agree that it is good and are happy to use it themselves, but most of their profits come from Microsoft users. Linux is generally much more reliable than Microsoft, and requires far fewer IT staff to maintain it.I have noticed that the majority of Linux users are not of British descent, and their knowledge of the English language may not be perfect, but their programming skills are far greater than mine.A friend who went to China on business a couple of years ago went out of his way to see what they were using. The only Microsoft system he could find was the airport flight information system, which had crashed to blue screens. Everyone else was using Linux. They do not care about the list price, they do not pay anyway, they just want the best.

Chris Bell ● 5405d

I do not care what system you use, Microsoft users create far more work to keep IT staff employed. Companies that have moved to Linux frequently find that they can significantly reduce their IT staff, sometimes down to just 20% from before.

Chris Bell ● 5405d

How is linux generally more reliable than Microsoft? and how does it require less staff?

James Buchan ● 5405d

Who said that the companies I have worked for solely used Microsoft? You seem a bit belligerent to Microsoft as a company for some reason and just spout random made up facts on how a system that you work on is so great and nothing is comparable.In fact everything has it's place and use.

James Buchan ● 5405d

It rarely crashes, any sign of a problem is reported back to the maintainers, and the cause can normally be identified and fixed using the system logs. Every part of the system is open to inspection, and competent users can suggest ways to optimise the software. Security is much tighter, so although it is a much bigger prize if compromised it does not suffer from viruses.I have heard tales such as 28 web servers running Microsoft with 2 IT staff employed to maintain them struggling to keep the number off line down to 5. One of the IT staff went on holiday and the other gave up and installed Linux on one machine. At the end of the month the boss complained that he had not received the fault record for that machine and was told that there had not been a fault because it was not running Microsoft. The boss then demanded the invoice for the software and a copy of the license and was told that it was free software. A month later he agreed to run all the machines on Linux. A total of five machines were loaded with the standard Apache web server, and were found to fully cope with the total load. Another five were loaded with a totally different system as a backup, but never received any of the load.It is easy to install, multiple machines can be installed and configured to a set "preseed" template, multiple machines can be updated remotely (and automatically if required) using system management software over encrypted links, the administrator can remotely monitor operation and be notified of any developing problem.A while ago the head of IT at a well-known distribution company cleared his desk and walked out one Friday afternoon. The company required all IT problems to be fixed within 20 minutes at any time 24/7. The person who took over ran a software package that interrogated every single item of hardware over about 5 local area warehouses and took about 2 hours to list the capabilities and configuration of every item. Software was then arranged to report any changes and notify both head office and the local person responsible at that time of day. If the fault was not fixed within the specified time it was automatically reported upwards through the list of managers. Then the biggest problem was that if a communications link died then everything behind it also registered as faulty, so they had to introduce a priority list.

Chris Bell ● 5404d

Obviously both Microsoft and Linux compatible applications are available for download from the internet. If you download something for Microsoft there can be anything embedded in the download. If you download Free Open Source Software you could examine the entire source code.Most available FOSS is also submitted to the various distributions where it is peer reviewed and tested. It is then security marked to prevent corruption before being listed and included in the distribution. Users can then search the index and download the software they need. Care will have been taken to check configuration options.Most of the distributions also develop more FOSS which is then available to others. My own ISP also funds FOSS from any profits. Secure public software mirrors and other development facilities are provided by many universities, including Kent, Oxford, and Warwick, plus service providers such as Virgin, Sky, and other less well known organisations, with many more available outside the UK.

Chris Bell ● 5403d

The majority of computer users aren't of British descent.  Did you mean Linux users in Britain often aren't British?  I've not seen any evidence of that.Most, if not all, good university computing courses should at least do some work with Linux.  Many of them hardly touch Windows -- I never did.  Only a third of the PCs in the labs had Windows, and you had to reboot them to get into it.(Oh, and Linux may require fewer staff, but those staff are probably better skilled and cost more.)A big attraction for small, web-based businesses is the pre-existing software you can build on, but also the lack of licensing costs.  You can have a spike in demand, and you don't need to worry about paying for "Enterprise edition" of whatever you're using now that you have 10,000 users.

M Blissett ● 5402d

I have found that a surprisingly large proportion of existing users are non-British, and there appears to be much more interest in learning about Linux amongst non-British users. (This is not intended as a racist remark, I am British myself and have always lived in North Acton, although I have many friends from around the world).I definitely agree that Linux users are probably better skilled than Microsoft users, partly due to their formal education, partly due to the fact that Linux is Open and written by people who want it to remain Open and usable.A few years ago Racal were presented with an estimate well over £1,000,000 to update their Microsoft system, so they purchased a single copy of RedHat, which comes with printed documentation and the promise of some commercial backup, and moved the entire company to Linux.

Chris Bell ● 5402d

Oh dear. I have discovered the cure for insomnia. Acronyms agogo whatever makes you happy.

Colin Carroll ● 5402d

Javascript seems a good choice, and BASIC too.  I expect it's more about learning concepts than any particular implementation?  You could use many languages, but Javascript is in every web browser, which perhaps makes actually using it more interesting.I think the most relevant point regarding Linux in education would be the ease with which you can tinker with it.  I first heard about Linux when I was in Year 12 (2002), and fairly soon had a web server and email server running on an old PC.  I then figured out PHP (to make my website dynamic), lots of networking stuff (DNS, HTTP, packet sniffing, etc), and set up a database server (MySQL)... Of course, I could have done that with pirate Microsoft software, but that leads to learning Microsoft software.  It's easier to learn more general, transferable stuff using Linux.  Starting out, everyone just follows the instructions, same as on Windows. But later, with Linux / open source software you can have a look inside and see all the nuts and bolts.  There's a community of helpful people -- it's very easy to Google for forum posts, how-tos, lots of accessible documentation.I don't think that's something you would (or could?) teach in a lesson -- perhaps in computer club.  My two friends and I just figured things out ourselves in our spare time.

M Blissett ● 5402d

I usually ask people I help to get started with Linux not to send any requests for overtime payments. It can be addictive. It can also lead to a very good well-paid career.http://www.chrisbell.org.uk

Chris Bell ● 5402d