Forum Topic

Application for hostel/b&b for the homeless on Denehurst Gardens

There is currently a planning application from the owner of no. 9 Denehurst Gardens for a B&B/hostel for the homeless.  Understandably this is causing much concern amongst local residents.  Please log on to the planning portal for Ealing Council on http://www.pam.ealing.gov.uk/portal/servlets/ApplicationSearchServletto view the application in full.  Not all residents have been notified of this proposed hostel, so please submit your comments/objections to:- planning@ealing.gov.uk.  Comments to be received by Wednesday, 18th January 2012.Many thanks for your help in advance.

Eileen Francis ● 5361d45 Comments

Eileen, any further details, ie, who is proposing to do this, a private individual, the Council, a Housing Assn.?

Dee Cook ● 5361d

Hi DeeIt's a private individual who currently lives there who is renting it out to a number of international students and he has acquired HMO status.  Interestingly none of us were consulted about this or informed of him attaining that status.  He is doing it through the Council and if you check the planning portal, Social Services are backing him to the hilt because they need the housing.  He will move out to another property which he owns in East Acton and these individuals will be left unsupervised during the day/evening/night.  He shall just provide breakfast for them. He said to me that he will get much more money for providing the bed and breakfast element and as far as he is concerned it's a done deal with the Council.  Does anyone have any advice on what we can do about this?  We have young families on this road and are very concerned about the potential anti social behaviour element that will arise from the occupants of this intended accommodation.  It's also interesting that hardly any of the residents of our road or surrounding roads have been informed by the Council of this application.  Many thanks in advance for comments received/advice.

Eileen Francis ● 5361d

What annoys me most about this whole episode is that Ealing failed to notify anyone beyond the two immediate next door neighbours! Our street currently only has 16 houses so we would all be affected! And why allow a high profile development in the tram depot where many over priced flats have been sold already to then consider a hostel round the corner which will affect prices and leave these buyers with negative equity? And we also have council plans to divert traffic down our street to content with!!! I get the feeling that the council have simply decided to let Acton go down the pan.

Shao-Ying Ben-Nathan ● 5360d

There seems to be a general harrumphing from those who have replied to this thread without making your objections more specific.What are they?

Keith Iddon ● 5360d

My objections are several but the main one is the fear of anti-social behaviour that comes with a transient community, these may be unfounded but without full information I am very worried, I often come home late at night. & at the moment feel very safe as I pretty much know or recognise all my neighbours. Our street is very small so this will have a disproportionate affect on all the residents. Perhaps this is a case of "not in my backyard" but I'd rather object now then discover my fears were justified!!!!

Shao-Ying Ben-Nathan ● 5360d

Please have a look at the plans on the planning portal and the letter of intention from the applicant and you will see just how detrimental this proposed application will be.  We do have some concerns at the potential disruption of up to 12 people living in 1 house. This seems an over intensification of the current use of this house compared with the other houses on the street with potential for noise and disruption. The applicant is of the opinion that it is a done deal however as the Council seem to be totally in favour of the scheme and the applicant has told me that the voices of the neighbour's expressing concern will be of no effect.  Given the recent developments on Denehurst Gardens, all of which were objected to, one wonders if it is worth objecting to these applications when they are obviously going to go ahead anyway but we can only try as it is a creeping scourge on the whole of society. It is obvious that an intensive hostel use does not relate well to the use of the immediate neighbouring houses and will have a potentially detrimental effect on the residents of those houses with so many people coming and going. Such an intensive use of a single house cannot fail to have an impact on the neighbours. I don't think it is compatible with the density of housing use in the vicinity. The Design and Access Statement admits that there may "perhaps" be a more intensive use than other single family houses in the road. There is no "perhaps" about it in my view. Doubling the number of occupants in one go seems a definite increase in intensity.  The Statement also curiously says that because only a light breakfast will be provided, the amount of refuse and recycling generated by the hostel is expected to be significantly less than the existing waste generated by the HMO use.  How on earth does he work that out? Won't the 12 residents eat anything else all day? Of course there will be an increase in the amount of refuse this house produces. 12 people will be cooking and eating in shifts and I'm not convinced that there is sufficient room to store all that rubbish for the weekly collection. At worst it will all be piled up in the front garden or in our shared passageway. This will definitely have an impact. We don't think the tiny front space is big enough for the refuse storage and also the bicycle storage that the applicant seems to think he can accommodate there. It will look unsightly compared to the current garden space.  They never use the recycling facilities as it stands currently so we can imagine what the place will look like.  Please, please put your objections to the Council.  email: planning@ealing.gov.uk We live in a democratic society and have the right to air our views.Many thanks. 

Eileen Francis ● 5360d

I found the application on the Ealing website:http://www.pam.ealing.gov.uk/portal/servlets/ApplicationSearchServlet?PKID=139852 My home backs on to Denehurst Gardens and completely agree with the objections.

Karim Ladak ● 5360d

I have also pointed out to Planning that my property was not on their list "consultees" for the planning application, but those either side of me are. You may want to check if you are on the list of "consultees" and if you are question where the notice is, and if you are not and you are in proximity to number 9 then question why you were not being consulted. Surely this failure deems the application invalid?

Karim Ladak ● 5360d

Karim can you give me your email address so that I can send you a copy of the proposed letter.  Would you be our contact for the Petition on Wilcott Road?

Eileen Francis ● 5360d

On the grounds that we all have to live somewhere and that these people are not criminals, do any of you have any suggestions as to where they should live? I wonder if any of the ethnic minorities who moved into your street years ago engendered the same type of feelings in local residents?

Keith Iddon ● 5360d

Hi Eileen, I live on Gunnersbury Lane. You know Henry my neighbour downstairs, and he texted me this morning about the application.

Karim Ladak ● 5360d

The main issues here are overcrowding and saturation of an already saturated, overdeveloped road, loss of privacy, pollution, lack of parking, noise, fire risks, anti social behaviour, problems with refuse, pest control etc.  Do not bring race into it Keith no-one has suggested anything of the sort - indeed if you look at us as protestors our names are all of ethnic minorities!    We do have not any idea of who these people will be i.e. any mission statement which is also part of the problem. We are very cross that we have not been consulted properly.  Only a handful of houses randomly selected.  As Karim and Ying say this is not fair and should make the consultation process void.

Eileen Francis ● 5360d

Being the son of an immigrant (read ethnic minority) although I was born in London, it should not be ethnicity, race or creed that is the issue here. Look around Acton, and one of the reasons I love it is because of its rich ethnically diverse population. The difference is these people have built lives in the neighbourhood and contribute to it whether through business or  social groups. They have created homes and care about the places spaces and communities they live in. In my experience, those who reside in hostels are transient, who often do not have time to, maybe do not want to, contribute to the community in which they live. Hostels are a temporary solution and because they are temporary there is no need for them to engage with their neighbours. I would like to believe that many of those that live in Acton would like to think of it as home, one where they talk to their neighbours, respect each other and each others property. Unfortunately those housed in hostels are unable to do this but I hope they do when they are permanently housed. Ealing's focus should be on permanent housing not temporary hostel solutions.

Karim Ladak ● 5360d

I mentioned ethnisc minorities for the very reason that some of the responders to this thread are from ethnic backgrounds.They may have engendered the same feelings in some.It is called empathy I believe,or possibly a lack of it.You are right if the consultation process has not been sensitive to all.It should be inclusive of all,but to object to a hostel for the homeless on the grounds of anti-social behaviour,pollution(?),refuse and pest control seem spurious and unfair.In my experience it is quite often houses of multiple occupancy where (usually) young and boisterous people who pay rent and who work will cause the most problems with noise etc.

Keith Iddon ● 5360d

OMG! I am a member of the ethnic minorities & have had my share of name calling, threats, abuse etc I grew up in Tottenham which is incredibly mixed so I really don't understand why you are trying to suggest our concerns are similar to being racist. This is not a race issue so please don't do that as it waters down the real problem of racism.Also I have in the past lived next door to a HMO and had a lot of problems with anti social behaviour including having the life my new born child threatened when I asked them to turn down their music at 3am! So I am worried that this will be the outcome again.Being concerned about the impact to our homes and lives by the creation of a hostel doesn't make me a bad person!

Shao-Ying Ben-Nathan ● 5360d

Shao-Ying,If you can't see the parallel I am making then so be it.Because they are homeless,does not mean to say they are any more likely to cause problems than anyone else.HMOS with rent paying working people are as likely to be a problem but becuase the word homeless is in the mix it seems ok to be prejudicial toward them.Clearer now?

Keith Iddon ● 5360d

Sigh, let's move on. I do understand the prejudice that the homeless face, having worked as a volunteer for a year but I am also tired of the council choosing to ignore the concerns of residents, if they choose not to consult us properly or offer us the facts, of course we worry. I have had my concerns brushed aside on several developments including acton pools and the tram depot, this is not how consultations should work!

Shao-Ying Ben-Nathan ● 5359d

Should clarify a volunteer in a homeless shelter but also the word homeless can cover a huge group of people rather than the narrow definition of those living on the streets. It can amongst other things include those evicted from social housing due to anti-social behaviour but yes of course it can also be people that are down on the luck. But as we have been left in dark, how am I suppose to know? If Keith is right then super and I will support every future hostel application on every Acton street but if not then will the council deal with the fall out? There is too many unknown factors here and I am annoyed that on top of this I am being made to feel bad at being concerned.

Shao-Ying Ben-Nathan ● 5359d

Your sarcasm regarding every future application blah blah blah is misplaced.I too would feel annoyed with the council if correct consultation had not occured but I am surprised that someone who themselves was subject to the prejudice you said you experienced in Tottenham would say something as crass and knee jerk about 'transient communities'and anti-social behaviour being almost a given ,it would seem.Did you glean this type of assumption from your voluntary work?

Keith Iddon ● 5359d

I agree with Keith!, he made the comparison between a view of 'the homeless' and of how ethnic minorities were perceived many years ago. As usual people blame the council when anyone can apply for PP and the council must follow set procedure. If you feel the range of people written to was inadequate consult the relevant policy document (http://www.ealing.gov.uk/downloads/download/593/neighbour_notification_on_planning_applications) and if you think you have a case, complain. The list of addresses consulted is given with the PP online. They have reconsulted in the past when enough people have!There are several cheap hotels not far from the road which could be used by LBE for B&B. The location is in central Acton and I can see why it might be thought ideal for the use. It is very similar to an HMO so i can also see why a change of use might be thought acceptable.One other thing you can do is to ask a councillor to make representations for the decision to be made at committee, rather than delegated (as it is now) I suggest you argue on the principle rather than detail as items such as refuse storage can be sorted by a condition attached to the permission. You might wish to ask how the council will refer people to the landlord, will they have been 'accepted as homeless' and if so will they have any 'support needs'. If this is the case how will they be supported given the lack of staff in the building?. The house might just be used as somewhere for non statutory homeless, enquiring at the council for advice on somewhere to live. I do not see it being much different to an HMO....

Iain Muir ● 5359d

I think you are choosing to be insulting, I did say that that may be unfounded so I did not mean to suggest it was a given and certainly am surprised to be called crass. I sorry that this has turned into something personal and nasty. I only meant to discuss my worries and yes I can be sarcastic but am certainly not the only one. What did I discover from my time as a volunteer, hmmm, the homeless were and are a mixture of the lovely, the great, the sad, the mad and the ordinary plus every other type of person. Generally the only assumption I gleaned from my time is that life is unkind sometimes. I wish everyone a great evening and apologies to those I have upset, I certainly didn't mean it. If anyone from Tottenham is reading, come on you spurs, we might just win it this year!

Shao-Ying Ben-Nathan ● 5359d

You couldn't be further from the truth with the 'choosing to be insulting' remark.If you can't see where your remarks and the remarks of others might be taken as prejudicial against a disadvantaged and stigmatised section of society then that is a shame.They could actually turn out to be good neighbours.Sometimes people who you think are going to be good neighbours,turn out to be the opposite.Honestly,no insult intended toward you or toward any section of society.

Keith Iddon ● 5359d

Hmmmm let me think, who does the council accept as homeless? People with mental health problems, people with serious drug and alcohol addictions, troubled 16/17 year olds thrown out by their parents, people seeking asylum,  screw political correctness living next to such an electic mix of troubled people in unsupervised accommodation will be hugely problematic for the neighbours , I totally guarantee it because I too once worked for a homeless charity, residential area settings for homeless hostels just don't work , town centre locations are far more successful. It's pathetic the racist thread on here, people want to have quiet enjoyment of their homes and they ain't gonna get that with a homeless hostel next door to them,good luck to the danehurst residents stopping this

Gareth Sinclair ● 5358d

Gareth,You may or may not agree that if some of the attitudes shown on this thread by more than one poster were voiced against ethnic minorities moving into their road, it would appear questionable to say the least.But the homeless seem to be fair game for negative stereotyping and seem to  have no right to unprejudicial consideration. The point I am making is that people should be having a go at the council for not involving local residents,thus making people unsure,worried and confused about what is happening.Some homeless people are decent people who have fallen on hard times and the last thing they need when trying to make a new life are people who won't give them a fair go.I repeat,the problem here is the council.

Keith Iddon ● 5358d

One of the problems is HMOs in general. Do they ever make good neighbours? We had one for some years - unofficially - up to 14 cheerful youngish kiwis. Practically drove us to distraction with their noise, drunkenness, careless vandalism, drunken abuse and total lack of consideration for anyone else in the neighbourhood. Terrorists were definitely a move in the right direction after that. At least they didn't have drunken parties lasting whole weekends. Isn't the problem one of responsibility? If it was warden controlled housing - or even monitored - there would be someone in charge and someone thinking about noise, rubbish and putting out the recycling. But with no-one there, it doesn't much matter what sort of HMO it is, neghbours are likely to have a less good time than if there are distinct flats or a family home next door.

Sara Nathan ● 5358d

Thanks for your comments Gareth - our sentiments exactly!  Please note that you can all object to this should you wish, you don't have to be a resident on the road.  Support from the general community would be great.

Eileen Francis ● 5358d

Yes Sara , as I said earlier it is often rent paying boisterous neigbours such as you've highlighted who are the hardest to tolerate.It is better to not prejudge.

Keith Iddon ● 5358d

Hi Eileen,I’m a Neighbourhood watch coordinator for Willcott Road. I am currently abroad but I try to keep in touch with the local news as much as I possibly can. Just came across this thread and found it quite unsettling .I understand how you feel, we felt the same way when we were opposing a half way house on our road and yet Council still went ahead and allowed it to open... And thats how houses around half way house got themselves neighbourgs from hell....I am not convinced that we should have another multi – occupancy property in such close proximity for various of reasons. Please can you keep me posted of what’s happening on your road, I would believe that the Council will have decision very soon. I expect to come back home by the end of the next month. My email address is anna_zmaj@hotmail.com. Please,please keep me posted. Thanks and good luck, I hope the residents of Denehurst Gdns will be more successful than us.

Ana Mijatovic ● 5356d

Just a little update on Willcott Road - seems you have quite a good support from our road! Let's just hope the Council does not approve the opening.I tried accessing the link Karim provided last night but it didn't seemed to be working. Good thing is that our household has already voiced our opinion!All the best Ana

Ana Mijatovic ● 5356d

A decent provision for the poor is the true test of civilization.~Samuel Johnson Apparently Acton is uncivilised, and ignorant of the amount of families with children who have lost their homes recently. Not all homeless people are drunk rapey men. 

Anna Heath ● 5354d

Well said Anna.Carl

Carl Tamboli ● 5354d

Then you have the hostel next to you, we'll all be delighted to see how positive you continued to be about it.

Gareth Sinclair ● 5354d

I'm afraid I agree with the people who don't want the hostel.  It's all very well saying "it might be OK" but if it's not, it's too late to do anything about it and the Council will not help once it's approved.  I think any fears could be calmed by having a live-in manager to deal with such issues as refuse/recycling and anti social behaviour if there are issues (although from the application apparently nobody will be there in between breakfast and bed time so it should be nice and quiet! haha). The homeowner would earn big bucks paid regularly without any questions by the council every month and could easily afford to pay someone, it would give someone employment and somewhere to live and the neighbours would have a single contact point on-site in case of any issues.  Problem solved.If it's not monitored who's to stop 30 people living there?  Homeless people have friends too who they may invite to stay. In fact it would be a nice little earner to sub-let your room to a friend to make some cash if you're a bit strapped.Isn't there a massive difference between an HMO and a hostel?  HMOs are privately rented on a fixed term and this hostel will be paid for by the council with possibly a high turnover - a very different situation for the neighbours.It's all very well playing the "give peace a chance" card, but the planning proposal makes it sound like dosshouse - you'd have thought at least on the planning application they'd make an effort.  The description of a "continental breakfast" as milk, cereal, tea and coffee made me laugh as did the statement that it won't have any refuse "Given that most tenants will only be present for breakfast". If this is a hostel for the homeless it's likely they don't have jobs, or maybe part-time jobs which don't pay enough to rent privately so where are they going to go during the day?  He also makes a point of calling the residents "families" so it sounds better, although the rooms are clearly bedsits and if this was for families they'd be designed as family rooms not single occupancy rooms. So I don't see this as much a problem with the people who might live there, I see this as a problem with the owner.  His application makes him sound a 70s slum lord trying to make as much money out of the council as he can so I doubt he's going to give a toss about what goes on there as long as he gets his cash.  We all know the council will do nothing if there are any problems so I agree that this needs to be scrutinised heavily by the neighbours.

Sarah Harris ● 5354d

"Dosser's fees" are what you pay to kip on the carpet in a house IMO. It was only about a fiver a night in the one next door to us - still a nice little earner if you have approximately six people a night doing it, every night.Supplements those available to attend the parties in the back garden too. Nice.

Sara Nathan ● 5353d

Very well said, spot on

Gareth Sinclair ● 5353d

A quick forum search of the word "hostel"  would suggest these places tend not to live up to most of the concerns expressed on this thread. Mostly worries about planning applications. I'm sure there are similar hostels in Acton that you've never noticed.Homeless people have few choices, and in most cases, I'm sure, will adhere to the old phrase, 'you don't s*** on your own doorstep!'It was years before I realise there was a halfway house a few hundred yards from where I live. It's a large converted house, the reception room is an office, I spotted images of hallways and doors on their monitor screens. But it's very quiet and tidy. I Googled it.  We have an HMO on one side, on the other side, a young professional couple who have dinner parties with friends in the garden, up to around 3.00 am.

Fred Bray ● 5353d

Well said.My feelings excatly as I expressed earlier.

Keith Iddon ● 5353d

The house in question is not of sufficient size to house 12 people.  Some of the rooms have been subdivided and will have no windows - check out the application.  We do not want this establishment on Denehurst Gardens - end of story! Every household on the road has objected to it bar one and surrounding roads have also objected.

Eileen Francis ● 5352d

Some of the rooms have been subdivided and will have no windowsIsn't this illegal.  Definite fire risk and, no escape.

Nicola Howard ● 5352d

You and Keith (to a degree) sound like colonialists-the people around the streets where the hostel is proposed clearly don't want it, yet you would rather the council imposed it upon them, with the snide  implication that they, the people, are small minded bigots cruelly lacking empathy for homeless people. If you truly believed in local democracy you should  respect the people's views, having worked in homelessness services for most of my adult life, their concerns are wholly legitimate and justified, you do not know what is in the best interests of the  residents. Good luck to them all.

Gareth Sinclair ● 5352d

What a strange analysis. I have only said,read my posts again if you can be bothered, that the real villain of the piece seems to be the council and that it is a good idea not to prejudge people too much.It is quite often rent paying people in hmos who cause a lot of problems and my opinion has been borne out by the experiences of a couple of people who have posted.You have to also bear in mind that Acton does not exist in a bubble and does not have any no go areas as regards living in the real world.Some people on this forum value it for being'edgy','vibrant' and diverse.You come out with the same negative generalisations that were used against immigrants and foreigners a few years ago.But because these people are unfortunate enough to be homeless they are fair game.I am surprised that you have worked in homelessness services for most of your adult life.Unless you are very young now,that is.

Keith Iddon ● 5352d

Well said Keith (again)Planning is a borough issue not a 'local democracy' To put it crudely just because a group of residents do not want a development on their patch does not mean their will should prevent a borough need. Planning must always take the wider view, whether it's widening a motorway, expanding an airport, creating an urban extension or a simple hostel. I suggested some simple steps the residents could take in an earlier post....

Iain Muir ● 5352d

Who slings mud on here? You and your mates, always in your bourgeoise articulate ways, implying people on here are raccists or callous towards homeless people, YOU JUST DON'T GET IT, PEOPLE DON'T WANT IT, what could be simpler-now either get behind the residents or go away and stop demoralising the raids ts.  and Bray are typical of the Beijing authorities, let's knock down people's home for the greYou miss  the point entirely, people don't want it, get it?what could be simpler, you and bray should stop implying people are racists or callous towards homeless people (which is what you really mean when you disembody your fancy words) and either get behind the residents or shut up and stop demoralising them,

Gareth Sinclair ● 5352d

I have not implied anything about racism.I do not know the race of the people who are moving in.I am suggesting that you are discriminating on the grounds of perceived social status and disadvantage in the same way that other people have been discriminated against for other reasons. Clear now?

Keith Iddon ● 5352d

Indeed Ian,you have offered good advice and a balanced view here.By the way Gareth, I doubt whether anything I or anyone says on this forum will 'demoralise' anyone from doing anything, unless of course the views of complete strangers are important to you.I am sure if people have the right resolve,they will do what they feel they have to do.This is a discussion forum.In discussions people quite often disagree but it is quite rude to tell someone to 'shut up'.

Keith Iddon ● 5352d