Forum Topic

Milliband's Dad love of Britain ... including Acton

Latest round of press silliness in conference season with counter by Ed Milliband - includes comment that his Dad went to Acton Technical College.http://labourpress.tumblr.com/post/62751616247/ed-miliband-my-dad-was-a-man-who-loved-britain

Paul Webster ● 4731d25 Comments

Yes I saw that and hooted slightly - it was quite a long time ago.Have you tried #mydadhatedbritain ? A total giggle and a great riposte to the vile Daily Mail

Sara Nathan ● 4731d

I think the Mail have shot themselves in the foot this time; all but the most right-wing loony thinks they crossed a line.

Susan Kelly ● 4731d

I think that's because we have all had fathers, some of whom have died and most of whom were loved.And I suspect we would mostly want to defend them if someone said vile things about them.So we - even if we don't support either Ed Miliband nor his dad politically -empathise with anyone defending the memory of a much-loved father from unwarranted attack.

Sara Nathan ● 4730d

Watched Tuesday's Newsnight on Catch-up this morning and was not impressed by Alistair Campbell at all. Any idea that he did 'a Malcolm Tucker' on Jon Steafel (?) is wide of the mark. Steafel remained calm and composed while Campbell ranted away, asking him questions and then talking over his answers, all the time blinking furiously as if about to burst into tears. Sadly, that round to the Mail!

Susan Kelly ● 4730d

Aah Newsnight, best TV I've seen in ages!  Made me think how well The Thick of It took off Campbell.  A real Malcolm Tucker moment.Enjoy (don't know how to post is as a video, sorry)http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-GMTxycAXY

Sarah Harris ● 4730d

Quentin Letts of the Mail was on Question Time last night and raised a laugh from the studio audience by saying that the Mail was outside 'the political village' and not part of the establishment. On reflection, though, I think he's right.

Susan Kelly ● 4730d

Unfortunately anyone who puts themselves up for such a high profile job these days should expect to have their background (and that of their family) scrutinised most closely. We are in the most, products of how our parents bring us up, and those to choose to disagree with their parents over 'politics or religion' usually end up as foes!Not everyone can debate and still be friends afterwards.

Dee Cook ● 4728d

To a Belgian, everyone must seem nationalistic. We're talking about a made-up country, divided into two warring factions who would rather speak English than learn each other's languages.

Susan Kelly ● 4725d

Nikki Howard ● 4725d

Er, how well do you know Belgium, the Belgians and their history??No need to bother answering thst - you just have.

Chris Veasey ● 4725d

Having lived in Belgium for 21 years and gone through the Belgian school system, I would say I was somewhat knowledgeable on the subject and did not disagree with the earlier comment. Belgium became a country in 1830, quite recently and they are divided. I lived in the French speaking part and if travelling through the Flemish part would always speak English rather than practise my school Flemish. I would not dare use French.Of course there is a lot more to Belgium, a rich cultural history and outstanding cuisine to name but 2.But even after living there as long as I did from a very young age, It never felt like home, still felt like a foreigner.

Kim Rugg ● 4725d

Don't get me wrong, I like Belgium, but am struck by the way that in, say, Antwerp, everything is in Flemish with no concessions to the Walloons, while a short trip to Liege finds the exact opposite. All I'm saying is that they lack a strong sense of nationhood: there are even murmurings about splitting up every so often. Plus, as Kim says, they date back only to 1830 as a country.

Susan Kelly ● 4725d

My impression is that Belgium is like the cultural fault line of Europe, where Southern culture meets Northern culture. There is very little love lost between the two. There is a stronger allegiance in many for their region than for their country.Interestingly, Belgium functioned quite well without a government for 20 months until the current prime minister Elio Di Rupo was sworn in, now there is a good Belgian name for you! Each community resents a prime minister that hails from the other community.When my Belgian stepfather passed away my mother was trying to get rid of his (very nicely tailored) suits. I suggested a charity shop would welcome them. She said, I quote' He wouldn't want his suits on the back of some Flem'. This would have been unlikely as the Flemish are the economically dominant community and the suits would have more likely gone to a less fortunate Walloon. I am very fond of the country as my cultural roots lie therebut as an outsider I am amazed at it. Someone in The Economist suggested that the only reason why they are not blowing each other up is that they are too rich and too well fed.Just to steer the thread back to Ralph Miliband. His parents were Polish immigrants so their Belgian roots were not too deep. Belgium was occupied during the war and Jews were being rounded up. There was a resistance, my step father was part of it, and I believe Ralph's mother and sister were hidden by some locals while Ralph and his father escaped on the last ship out of Ostende.

Kim Rugg ● 4725d

Yes the country has existed for nearly two centuries, making it older-established than nearly every other country in the world, and not much younger than some of the largest and most powerful - and do you know HOW they established their independence in the 1830s, in defiance of the surrounding 'great powers??Yes, we all know that (some of) the Flemings and Walloons hate each others' guts - but what evidence have you that either side would rather be in another country? My impression, from acquaintance going back over four decades, is that Belgians on both sides of the Great Divide are quietly (and IMHO justly) proud and patriotic (ie the better side of nationalism) of their country and its many achievements and distinctions - just that some on each side would rather have the country to themselves and wish the other half would disappear forthwith - just like an unhappily married couple who nevertheless continue to stick it out.Not sure where that would leave the inhabitants of parts of inner Brussels who speak their own language or patiois composed of predominantly French words and Flemish grammar.Oh and BTW I have in the past spoken and been politely served in French in Antwerp and the Flemish territory surrounding Brussels, in the absence of sufficient proficiency in Dutch (as a substitute for Flemish). The language to really avoid using is German, for understandable historical reasons - my father once narrowly escaped being lynched by Brussels market traders when he made the mistake of thinking german would serve as a substitute for Flemish.

Chris Veasey ● 4725d

'my father once narrowly escaped being lynched by Brussels market traders when he made the mistake of thinking German would serve as a substitute for Flemish.'When was this?! Are you saying that Germans take their lives in their hands every time they cross the border?'what evidence have you that either side would rather be in another country?' Not what I said: I said that there is occasional talk of splitting the country up. I seem to recall that when the new king, who speaks little Flemish, was sworn in recently, the Flemings did a collective 'Meh'.

Susan Kelly ● 4725d

There's more than one cultural faultline in Europe - and sure, part of the Germanic/ Latin faultline runs across Belgium, but surely the real north-south faultline in western Europe runs across the middle of France not Belgium?And re France, have you ever popped across the border from (French-speaking) Belgium into Givet (the French town which is at the tip of a French proctological finger poking into nether Belgium? - from my observation, strikingly greater predominance of typically (though of course not universally) French black hair, yellow skin and shifty/ suspicious demeanour. Of course there may be other reasons for that but it sure contrasts with the human scene across the border.-  which reminds me, another thing that seems to unite many Belgians (including French speakers) is disdain for France.

Chris Veasey ● 4725d

It was in the 1980s I think - I wasn't there, he told me about it later, and he's dead now so I can't check; but I doubt attitudes have mellowed among such sectors of Belgian society since then.No of course it's not as universally bad as that; and there's a small but significant German minority particularly in the two small border provinces that Germany had to hand over to Belgium after WW1.Similar attitudes to Germans linger among the Dutch (in Netherlands) btw, for similar reasons.Re what you originally said, or clearly and unequivocally implied, was to the effect that Belgians can have no national sentiment and that the country has no right to exist because of the differences among its people and because it is 'only' a couple of centuries old.

Chris Veasey ● 4725d

I love the serendipity of ActonW3Its starts with a post about Ed Milliband's Dad - and ends in a heated discussion about the cultural / ethnic position etc of Belgium.

Richard Grange ● 4724d

Nothing heated about it - just (IMHO) interesting debate/ discussion - all that's worth saying about the Milliband issue has been said already, here and elsewhere.

Chris Veasey ● 4724d

Scratch the word "heated" and replace with "thoughtful"

Richard Grange ● 4724d

Ha yes that's better!

Chris Veasey ● 4724d

I most certainly did NOT say, or even imply, that Belgium has no right to exist. What I said was that there was often agitation, from its own residents, to split it into two.

Susan Kelly ● 4724d

My posting was only ever intended as a light-hearted remark for the increasingly small number of people on this forum who possess a SENSE OF HUMOUR.

Susan Kelly ● 4724d

The 'humour' in endless jibes at Belgium and the Belgians and the dog-whistle canned titters they are supposed to invoke wore off even before the first tenth-rate comic dreamed them up as a substitute for humour when he forgot his lines.I'm all for real humour, and, if possible, wit.

Chris Veasey ● 4724d

Belgium probably reflects an international trend on many countries reassessing internally why they are together, largely in a post communist world? Some have made the split (the break up of the USSR, plus Czech Republic and Slovakia); some have talked about it a lot but done nothing (Belgium being one of the best cases) and some are trying to make it fly but on current evidence will not (Scotland) or have tried to force it to happen and in return had it opposed forcefully (Basque Republic in Spain).

Joe Conneely ● 4723d