Forum Topic

Moral dilemma...

So when the big international companies not paying tax story broke last year, I was so cross that I abandoned Starbucks - aven't been back since and have not for one single moment missed them. I also ditched Amazon (except for kindle which was just pragmatic)Now we find Amazon pay virtually no tax, offshore their operation, treat their staff appallingly ...BUTWaterstones website is frankly rubbish, their stock is thin and their payment methods often iffy. Whereas I made an Amazon purchase (out of stock at Waterstones and no renewal date) which was wholly painless and arrived less than 48 hours later.So do I abandon principles and revert to Amazon - like everyone else seems to have done?

Sara Nathan ● 4669d32 Comments

Kick the habit.How about this one:  http://www.oxfam.org.uk/shop/booksand John Lewis sell some books which can be delivered to Waitrose.

Philippa Bond ● 4669d

Agreed..either make your stand or don't. Sometimes you have to compromise convenience to adhere to principles. That's partly why they are worth keeping, they remind us that there are more worthwhile considerations than our own ease.

Keith Iddon ● 4669d

John Lewis for books isn't any better than amazon - despite lobbying for a "fair playing field" on tax they use some of the same offshore tax arrangements as competitors:http://www.fairtaxmark.net/fair-tax-mark/john-lewis-should-come-clean-about-its-captive-insurance-company/Amazon is a tricky one - there's a lot made of the tough life order pickers have but it doesn't seem that different from my own experience of doing similar work. On the tax front - Amazon is a pretty capital intensive business so it's arguable whether they really are avoiding significant amounts of tax - and in any event, most of the government's tax income is job related - so as a large creator of jobs they potentially contribute a lot indirectly.

Chris Martin ● 4669d

Philippa,Unfortunately the Oxfam book shop is not a good source of current books that one might like to send give as presents!I use The Book People and Amazon as they are often cheaper than Waterstones or W H Smith. The store workers for WH Smith's don't have it easy either so I understand - minimum wage, rude customers, long hours with no break.....

Amanda Knights ● 4668d

And I want specifics - the ones we have upcoming for book club always form part of Mum's xmas stocking (we are not VERY Jewish at this time of year!)So Penelope Fitzgerald, all quiet on the western front and something else.

Sara Nathan ● 4668d

It's a no-brainer.  Avoid Amazon and Starbucks and all those vast corporations that take their profits from us but don't pay taxes here.  Get yourself another ereader (I have a Sony one which works fine).  They are cynically trying to be the only and dominant retailer in the market, and therefore every tiny thing we can do to prevent that helps.

Anne Brown ● 4668d

How about supporting an independent bookshop? There's one on Pitshanger Lane - I'm sure they could post books to you if you know what you want and don't want to leave the house.

Kate Samano ● 4668d

If you would like me to pick up books from the lovely (independent) Pitshanger lane bookshop I can. I'm a stone's throw away from it every day Mon-Thurs. http://www.pitshangerbooks.co.uk/

Clare Gittins ● 4668d

So called Pitshanger bookshop.They have only one of the four I asked for in stock....Maybe they can get the others.It's not, it seems to me, a practical answer given life. 

Sara Nathan ● 4668d

I take it all back...They will all be in by Friday.Yes please Clare, could you pick them up next week? They are all paid for?who needs the internet?

Sara Nathan ● 4668d

The Americans seem to have a different view....http://www.forbes.com/sites/timworstall/2013/12/02/the-absurd-amazon-boycott-in-britain/

Martin Hayes ● 4668d

The trouble with Amazon is that they have made buying once you have chosen so easy.Perhaps Waterstones need to put a bit more effort into this to get more of the Amazon market.  I love Amazon's minimal and easy to dismantle and recycle/reuse packaging - which means that they can often get a book through a letterbox with no problems.  Why couldn't the others do this?

Philippa Bond ● 4668d

Brilliant...  and a lovely shop...  but there is nothing wrong with second-hand!

Philippa Bond ● 4668d

I'm pushing myself to use Waterstones, because of the Amazon thing and I recognise that to have bookshops to visit, you need to buy something now and then.One thing you can do is use the click and collect feature, which means you can get books at the web price, but pick them up at the shop. It doesn't help with the stock issue though.I also use Amazon to find things and buy from the 'other suppliers'. It's a compromise as Amazon still makes money if you buy through them, but better than nothing. It's better to cut down as much as possible than give in!

Pete Grist ● 4667d

Can I suggest an alternative.I am going to declare an interest here - which is that I work in a job in which I have both investigated and then publicised  UK and big international companies that avoid tax albeit primarily in developing countries.Voting with your feet works best when you have a clear alternative. Eg if you are not happy with Starbucks then go to your local cafe. But other companies like Google are so ubiquitous it is very hard not to use their services. I still use Google all the time although I am bit more choosey about my coffee supplier.However there are a range of organisations that are out there campaigning on the issue of domestic and international tax avoidance - and have been remarkably successful in pushing the issue on to the agenda and driving legislative change at a national and international level.ActionAid (where I work) - has carried out investigations into Deloitte, Barclays, ABF Miller (owners of Primark) and SABMiller (makers of Grolsch) on the issues of tax havens and tax avoidance. But other organisations active in this field include Christian Aid, Oxfam and a collective of former accountants gone rogue / and journalists known as the Tax Justice Network.If you are finding it hard to vote with your feet - another way of attacking the problem is to lend your voice to some of the campaigns. They are all slightly different so you can choose - which one suits you. And clearly, if you want to you can also donate

Richard Grange ● 4667d

Thanks Richard - you are so right about avoiding Starbucks being easy compared to Amazon or Google.

Sara Nathan ● 4667d

Great idea.  I don't know how to function without Google.

Philippa Bond ● 4667d

It's very easy to avoid Starbucks, given the poor quality of their product.

Susan Kelly ● 4666d

Hi Sarah, I'm more concerned that M&S are still seemingly sourcing their Angora wool from unethical and cruel farms, where the fur is literally ripped from the poor rabbits body before it's tossed back into a dirty cage, legs bound together in pairs until the fur grows back and the process can again begin.Carl

Carl Tamboli ● 4666d

Hi Sarah, I'm more concerned that M&S are still seemingly sourcing their Angora wool from unethical and cruel farms, where the fur is literally ripped from the poor rabbits body before it's tossed back into a dirty cage, legs bound together in pairs until the fur grows back and the process can again begin.Carl

Carl Tamboli ● 4666d

The problem is I do not have an infinite capacity to care...and angora goats doesn't quite leap my hurdles. Can anyone engage with everything? It's so exhausting to engage endlessly.Anyhow, have compromised: four lovely books, full price from Pitshanger.But 3 copies of Joanna Trollope Sense and sensibility for stockings/cousins etc cos it's £7 not £18.99 and I would NEVER buy them at that price anyhow so no-one loses (probably!)

Sara Nathan ● 4666d

Hi Sarah, your reply really saddened me. Our ability to care is surely one of the greatest feelings we can have.Why does it need to have limits???It's funny how we all see things differently isn't it? To me, if it were a choice between caring how closely Amazon and Starbucks aspire to any moral compass shrinks into insignificance when compared the needless suffering and fear humans force on defenceless animals, it would be a no-brainer.Carlp.s. Angora is a Rabbit not a goat btw!

Carl Tamboli ● 4666d

Do care about loads of things...just haven't the capacity to add another one just at the moment.Could (and might) happily subtract a few though

Sara Nathan ● 4666d

I tend to agree with Chris Martin and the person who posted the American view.  Hopefully we have the capacity to care about everything, so we have informed choices.  I see the Amazon thing as such:  they are employing people and selling other companies products on their site, so other companies are making profit and paying tax, it isn't all Amazon stock.  Also, the money, I understand, from turnover, goes back into building the company.  Sounds like good business sense to me?  I did boycott Amazon for a short while then thought about it - it's a very good service and if I can get a cheaper product, then that gives me more money in my pocket to spend with another company who will be paying tax too. Sara.....sorry the rabbits (or goats!) don't float your boat.....bit disturbed by that, as I think you're a government committee for animal testing?  I remember you not being an animal lover in another posting.....no problem with that, but I have to say I hope it doesn't influence your judgment.  Mind you, I'm a soppy fool around animals, so I'd probably be useless on such a committee!

Angela White ● 4664d

The animal procedures committee was abolished a year ago when the new european directive came in so am off that. But not  getting exercised, because too much else to worry about at the moment, ablout the breeding of angora rabbits for jumpers is not anyhow similar to doing an effective job advising on  laboratory animal treatment in UK institutions..

Sara Nathan ● 4663d

Does that mean you like the Trollope, Sara?

Susan Kelly ● 4663d

Absolutely adored it!Enjoyed every single moment and gobbled it up in about two days - and have been feeling vaguely regretful at my greed ever since. Who should get your copy next?How did you get it in paperback? It's not due out till the summer.

Sara Nathan ● 4663d

For anyone that does have the capacity for caring about animals, please take a moment to consider this when buying Angora from Marks & Spencer - or indeed any other supplier (especially those that sing from the roof tops about how they follow an ethical stance on such things).Regards, Carl

Carl Tamboli ● 4663d

Even though I work in this field (of researching companies which avoid tax ) I don't want to become Acton's hectorer-in-chief. In the end my view is to get the facts out there and then people can make their own minds up. That said - its important to get the facts as clear as possible and one of the things that people like Amazon, Starbucks etc always say is that "they provide jobs" and we should be grateful for that and that is contribution enough. Its a classic defence of tax avoidance. The problem its also paper-thin.There is actually plenty of evidence that shows that when companies avoid tax - the money  ends up in the pockets of the CEO, staff bonuses and shareholders etc. A very recent US study for example, revealed the companies paying the most tax were generally the ones that created most jobs - not the tax avoiding companies.Overall there is a long-term trend for large businesses to pay less and less tax. And it raises serious questions about the role businesses play in society.  At the moment Amazon, Starbucks etc are perfectly happy to use (indeed need) the infrastructure the UK provides to do business (eg roads, power grids, transport systems etc) But they are pretty much refusing to help pay for it - except through the tax paid by their employees.And that doesn't seem right. (PS - I should say at this point all views are my own!)PPS. Forbes magazine is one US view about tax avoidance. For another totally alternative view read this editorial in the NY Times. http://www.nytimes.com/2013/05/26/opinion/sunday/a-is-for-avoidance.html

Richard Grange ● 4661d

I see that several companies are withdrawing or stopping stocking angora.It makes me sneeze.

Philippa Bond ● 4658d

Half a page on the fate of angora bunnies and the campaign on the Chinese suppliers...Guardian G2 today.http://www.theguardian.com/world/shortcuts/2013/dec/16/angora-production-ethical-peta-video-chinese-rabbits

Sara Nathan ● 4655d

On Amazon interesting to see they are now facing Xmas strikes in Germany (where the downgrading of their job title (I think to logistics workers?) means less pay under German rules) and even in their homeland of the USA. From watching the BBC documentary the one thing that hit me was actually their warehouse in Wales was not as state of the art as one would have been led to believe (four floors and the lift between could only take the trolley not the worker). This compared poorly to separate films I had seen about the supermarket van home delivery systems. This must lead inevitably to pointless inefficiencies that only create greater human pressures to meet hard performance targets?

Joe Conneely ● 4655d